What Excites Us!

Ep. 59 - Discussing the Spectrums of Asexuality and Aromanticism with Aubri Lancaster

If you buy any of the books from these links the podcast will get a small amount, so it’s a great and easy way to support this work. 

People she mentions:

Miranda Fricker - Epistemic Injustice: Power and the Ethics of Knowing
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Lisa Orlando - Author of the Asexual Manifesto
https://asexualagenda.wordpress.com/2019/08/01/lisa-orlando-author-of-the-asexual-manifesto-1972/

Myra T. Johnson
https://acearchive.lgbt/artifacts/johnson-asexual-and-autoerotic-women/

Boston Marriages: Romantic but Asexual Relationships Among Contemporary Lesbians Paperback – November 17, 1993, by Esther D. Rothblum (Editor), Kathleen A. Brehony (Editor)
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Bella DePaulo - Single at Heart -https://amzn.to/3XotpXs

Transcript:

Ep 59 - Discussing the Spectrums of Asexuality and Aromanticism with Aubri Lancaster

[00:00:00] Gwyn: This podcast is about sex and sexuality, so please only listen if you are an adult without kids or other ears around that cannot, or do not consent to sensitive language and content.

[00:00:22] Gwyn: Have you ever questioned societal norms around romance and sexuality? I certainly did. And I know I'm not the only one. Welcome to What Excites Us! My name is Gwyn Isaacs. I'm a sex and relationship coach and educator who has been professionally working with people since 2017.

In today's episode, I'm talking with Aubri Lancaster. And AASECT and Ante Up! certified sexuality educator. Who challenges these expectations and advocates for a more inclusive dialogue around identity. Aubrey shares her personal journey of discovering her asexual and gray romantic identities. Emphasizing the importance of self-defined labels, understanding personal needs and respecting individual experiences.

Together we dive into the nuances of asexuality and aromanticism exploring their historical context and the fluidity of orientation. Aubri sheds light on the evolving nature of language, the value of micro labels and the various types of attractions beyond just the sexual and romantic. We also examine how social constructs around being normal, often fuel personal shame and frustration. And how embracing complexity can lead to more meaningful conversations around identity.

From the results of the asexual community survey to insights on diverse relationship models, this episode is a deep dive into the broad spectrum of human relationships and attractions. Join us for an educational and eye opening discussion with Aubri Lancaster, where we move beyond myth-busting to foster a richer, more nuanced understanding of asexuality and aromantic experiences.

But before we get started, I do have to ask a small favor. Well, small for you big for me. And that is to ask you to please take a moment to rate and review the podcast. Your feedback not only helps us improve, but it makes it easier for others to discover these important and often overlooked topics. Whether you're listening on apple podcasts or Spotify or most places that you tune in your ratings and reviews really, really do make a huge difference. It helps us reach more people and therefore we can help make the world a happier and therefore better place.

Marker

[00:03:00] Gwyn: Welcome, Aubri Lancaster to What Excites Us.

[00:03:04] Aubri Lancaster: Yay.

[00:03:06] Gwyn: I'm so excited to have this conversation. I haven't yet had a chance to touch on asexuality or aromanticism or all of the different shades that are involved. This is super exciting. I haven't had the chance to talk to anybody who's actually super knowledgeable and like, this is your jam. So.

[00:03:26] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah. Fabulous.

[00:03:28] Gwyn: Yay! But why don't we start with, can you just tell us a little bit about who you are and how you got to what it is that you do and what it is that you do.

[00:03:40] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah, sure. So I'm an AASECT certified sexuality educator. Um, I started out in 2003 doing in home adult toy parties with passion parties, and I did toy parties for 16 years. And, um, it wasn't until lockdown in 2020 that I finally found the language to understand asexuality and how it had been. Always been a part of my experience.

And so after spending that much time in the adult sexuality field and going to conferences and reading books and all of these things I had only ever heard the term asexual once. And it was in the context of being on the opposite end of a line from hypersexual. So it was in the context of libido, not orientation.

So when I finally understood as an orientation, I understood, Oh, wait, wait, that was an option. Um, it, it like so much of my life started go click, click, click, click, click. Um, and then understanding the difference between sexual attraction and romantic attraction was just like, ah, okay, that's it. That's it. Like I knew that the things that I had felt, you know, kind of fit in that romantic attraction category and realized that I didn't think sexual attraction actually ever been a part of my experience once I understood that distinction and some of the other kinds of attractions.

And, I realized, you know, if I hadn't learned this and all of my time in this field, this is not out there. This needs to get out there. So I spent a semester at Goddard Graduate Institute exclusively studying asexuality and aromanticism. And then I left that program to focus on my AASECT certification, which I completed last year. And now I'm doing workshops virtually. Um, I have a six hour training I do on asexuality and aromanticism, specifically targeted towards sexuality professionals, but open to anybody. And then I do other little workshops, um, kind of for professionals and personal use for whoever wants them.

[00:05:52] Gwyn: That's amazing. Kind of blows my mind that you were deeply involved in this world and there just wasn't the information available to you to learn more about it.

[00:06:06] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah, uh, there's a British philosopher named Miranda Fricker who talks about epistemic injustices, injustices of knowledge. And one of those is hermeneutical injustice. Which is where somebody's experiences are not well known to themselves or others. Because there isn't the representation available within the spaces that would bring that knowledge forward, such as academia and journalism and media.

So I just didn't have access to the language to understand my experiences.

[00:06:39] Gwyn: That's a whole rabbit hole that that I totally want to go down, but probably should not for this podcast.

[00:06:47] Aubri Lancaster: Oh, we can move down any rabbit hole you want. That's the fun of a podcast, right?

[00:06:53] Gwyn: Um, Yes, and time. I can guarantee that I'm going to look it up on the train that I'm going to be on later this afternoon. But for those who aren't familiar, like you weren't familiar. Will you please define those terms? Let's start with asexuality.

[00:07:11] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah. So the most common, you know, boilerplate definition that we're using in the community right now is asexuality is a sexual orientation where the person experiences little to no sexual attraction to other people. So it, Really focuses on that element of attraction. But as an identity term, it's also a little more broad and may include people who, um, may experience those attractions, but may not desire to act on them.

[00:07:42] Gwyn: Okay. And then, um. A romanticism

[00:07:46] Aubri Lancaster: Similarly, aromanticism is a romantic orientation where the person experiences little to no romantic attraction towards other people.

[00:07:57] Gwyn: Now, that is not to say that people don't experience sexuality or romance. Is that correct?

[00:08:05] Aubri Lancaster: So, um, somebody could be asexual and aromantic. Or they can be asexual and not aromantic. They could be aromantic and not asexual. So sometimes these things come together. Sometimes they are separate. It depends on how the individual experiences these things.

[00:08:24] Gwyn: And I noticed in your bio, you refer to yourself as gray romantic. Is that right? Yes. right?

[00:08:30] Aubri Lancaster: Mm hmm. So grey romantic, because it's a spectrum, there's, a lot of different ways that we connect to these experiences. So I connect to grey romantic because I have experienced romantic attraction in the past, but what I realized is a grey romantic is kind of an umbrella term in and of itself. So it means somebody who experiences that attraction rarely or weakly. Or only under certain circumstances. Or just kind of considers themselves somewhere between aromantic and what we would call alloromantic.

Alloromantic being somebody who is not aromantic. So, for me, gray romantic, um, When I 1st understood these terms, I considered myself alloromantic, asexual. Um, but as I, continued, I, I really started to realize that while I have definitely experienced romantic attraction in the past and, and very frequently when I was younger, ever since I met my spouse, um, that's the last time I experienced it. And while that is considered what is expected of us in society that, you know, once you've partnered with somebody, you just don't have those feelings for anyone anymore.

But we know that's not true. We know that that's a very common thing for people to have those feelings still in their life. So the fact that I haven't experienced romantic attraction at all in the last 15 years, and even so, like I have always approached the majority of my relationships platonically. So, you know, I really relate more to that gray romantic space.

Marker

[00:10:11] Gwyn: That makes sense. And that, sort of leads me to something that I've been thinking I don't know, harping on, but has been in the forefront of my brain for the past few years, which is the way that we have different types of attractions to people

[00:10:24] Aubri Lancaster: Yes. Mmm hmm. Should you want me to go through the different kinds of attractions?

[00:10:30] Gwyn: great. That'd be great.

[00:10:32] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah, so, um, some of the most common ones that will come up within these communities include aesthetic attraction, an appreciation or attraction to another person's body, attire, style, or personal space. So, you know, like your aesthetic, I love your hair and that pretty like floral design behind you, you know, your necklace, your style, it's a very cool way to express yourself.

So being drawn to somebody over something like that would be, you know, it's, it's an aesthetic draw. Our society kind of tells us that aesthetic attraction is really only, beauty standards. And innate physical characteristics, but that's such a narrow way of approaching that kind of attraction.

And there's a lot of asexual people that didn't realize they were asexual because they experience aesthetic attraction. You know, it doesn't necessarily mean you want to have sex with the person, you know, people who experience. Single gender attractions may still be aesthetically attracted to people of the genders that they're not sexually attracted to, but for an asexual person, that's kind of everyone. So I can continue. I don't know if you wanted to talk about that one.

[00:11:58] Gwyn: Yeah. No, let's just just roll.

[00:12:00] Aubri Lancaster: Okay. So sensual attraction, another one that kind of gets confused and conflated with sexual attraction, because that's where you're drawn to, um, kind of physical touch, cuddling, kissing, handholding, you know, all of these different kinds of physical activities that are part of it. Expected to lead to sex within a partnered relationship, but for some people, that's, that's it. That's what they want.

And so that can also be really confusing if you're like, oh, my gosh, I really just want to cuddle with this person. And society says, well, that means you also want to have sex with them. I do. Oh, I guess, I guess that's is that what I want? And, you know, I, I see that more aligned with the concept of skin hunger. You know, just needing physical contact with another person, and it doesn't have to be sexually arousing.

And then we have emotional attraction. You know, wanting to just share your feelings with somebody feel seen and heard and, at least in our society, we allow that to be satiated through things like therapy and other forms like that. Um, and, you know, we also have friends and family where emotional connections are often permitted, though, sometimes within a gendered binary, there are rules around who you are allowed to be emotionally connected to sometimes that's even seen as cheating within a monogamous relationship.

And then we have intellectual attraction, just, you know, wanting to geek out over things together. Um, share your special interests. Learn from somebody, teach somebody something. You know, just all the ways that we connect on a mental level. Like, how do we talk to each other? How do we share ideas with each other? How do we share fandoms? Things that we're really interested in, or hobbies or, you know, like stuff that we can just really get into together.

Um, and then platonic attraction, you know, wanting to You know, connect and bond with another person. Wanting to be friends with somebody. So there's, there's more, there's a lot more, and you could make as many as you want. You know, this isn't a finite type of list, it's language. We get to evolve and grow language.

[00:14:17] Gwyn: Yeah, I I love that about language. I used to be a little bit of a, grammar nerd and then I was like, that's dumb. There's no point for that for, for me, like other people. You do you like that's fine. If that's what you're into, that's great. But like, language is an evolving, thing. Like it's, it lives, it moves, it shifts. Okay, another rabbit hole.

As you were talking about the different types of attractions, I was putting into place some of the things that I have said in a much, um much less intellectual language. Like I've had friend crushes on people like, Oh, I really want to know them and I don't want to have sex with them.

I just want to hang out with them. Or sometimes I'm like, do I want to have sex with them or do I want to be them? Oh,

[00:15:09] Aubri Lancaster: You know, we have a term in the community for a friend crush. It's called a squish.

[00:15:14] Gwyn: Yes. I love that. And yeah, I have a lot of those. That's great. Oh, that's so good. Um, yeah. The aesthetic crush was something that I hadn't really, or attraction or whatever. It wasn't something that I had really identified. Yes. And, and that happens a lot to me. I am very attracted to style and different ways that beauty shows up in the world.

Yeah, and people present themselves. That's so that's just so neat. And this is honestly people. This is part of why I do this show, because there's so much to learn. And there's so much out there that, I just feel like we all need more information, or maybe it's just I need more information. I don't know.

That's okay. We'll just keep going.

[00:16:05] Aubri Lancaster: Absolutely

Marker

[00:16:08] Gwyn: I want to break down because I think there's a lot of misconception about asexuality and people having sex. I think that there's a misconception that if you are asexual, you don't ever want to touch genitals with anybody else ever. I know that there's a spectrum involved in that, but can you just go a little bit more into.

[00:16:30] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah. So, some people are non libidoist and they never have any interest in sexual contact either with themselves or with others. They never really get an urge or if they do, they just ignore it and move on. Um, some people may have a very high libido and they may want to engage in frequent sexual activity, either solo Or with another person that may also be willing and, you know, either somebody that they have a romantic relationship with, or somebody that they've negotiated a consensual sexual connection with.

So, um, the sexual attraction is a mechanism of arousal, but it's not the only mechanism of arousal. Now, all of that said, there was a poll of over 10, 000 asexual people done by, um, the asexual community survey, I believe it is, and, they asked. Are you, favorable, indifferent, averse, or repulsed towards sexual activity for yourself? And 45 percent said, averse, repulsed. Um, like 18 percent said, uh, Indifferent and a few said unsure and only like 9 percent said favorable.

So, um, often that question comes up as, you know, and I'm not saying you're doing this, but sometimes there's this need to find a sexuality a little bit more palatable to say, like, oh, but a sexual people still have sex. And that's not off the table for all asexual people, but it's also not the majority of the currently identified asexual population. So we have to make room for all parts of that, uh, you know, choice and spectrum, whether or not people are interested or not.

[00:18:21] Gwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And to be clear, I absolutely was not trying to make it more palatable. And please, please, please call me out if I do step in the wrong way, because I really have very little knowledge.

[00:18:34] Aubri Lancaster: You know, it's not that you're personally doing something. It's that this is how society does it. This is how our conversations turn around this subject. Like, there's this, you know, difficulty in comprehending it. A life that doesn't include sexual activity at all. And there's this kind of need to go like, well, maybe it sometimes does.

And for some people, yes. And we have to make space for all of that, because otherwise we just pit 1 part of the spectrum against another. And you know, asexual people who are sex repulsed, sex avoidant, or sex averse who have no interest in sexual activity alone or with a partner feel very invalidated when there is this push to say. But asexual people sometimes have sex.

Similarly, asexual people who do enjoy sexual activity feel very pushed out of the community when there's this constant, you know, push towards the averse repulse end of the spectrum. So there's, there's this push and pull in this constant social narrative that we're fighting. And we're just trying to make room for everybody.

[00:19:38] Gwyn: Yes. And thank you. And that's that's exactly what I'm hoping to do is to create more of an understanding within myself and with anybody and everybody who can hear this. Because I think that our move as a society towards labels, of the past, like, what 20 years, give or take. Um, has been really, really, really useful because it's helping a lot of people find and identify things that they didn't know was acceptable, or even other people experienced, or that they were allowed to feel, or all of the things.

On the other hand, It can sometimes feel like pigeonholing. And so trying to figure out a way where we can have conversations around these things is the only way that I think that we're truly going to be able to understand one another.

[00:20:28] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah,

[00:20:29] Gwyn: And so. Yeah, nuance is really important.

Marker

[00:20:34] Aubri Lancaster: absolutely. You want, you want my little spiel on like on labels.

[00:20:38] Gwyn: Yeah, absolutely. I want all your spiels, Aubri

[00:20:41] Aubri Lancaster: As far as I'm concerned, the key difference is who has the power of controlling the label. If I have the power of controlling my own labels, if I have full agency over my labels, if I'm the final arbiter of my labels, then I'm not stuck in that label. One of my favorite little memes about that was, um, it was like a Tumblr meme, and I don't remember the name, but I have it written on, like, my Instagram, uh, as any cat owner will be able to tell you someone else putting you in a box is entirely different from getting into a box yourself.

So when I am the final arbiter of my labels, I can get out of that box anytime I want to. If it doesn't fit anymore, I can get out. If you control my label and you tell me what it means, and I have to fit your understanding of this label, then I am confined by it. I am restricted by it. So I really feel that what we need to do more is just lean in and ask people, what does it mean for you? And if you're like, you know, my understanding of this term was such and such. What does it mean for you?

And when we stop telling each other, that's wrong. That's not what that means. It means this thing for you. You know, that's, that's not productive. And again, when we come back to that concept of language, you know, language is a tool. Labels are a tool. This is our way of communicating our internal intrinsic experiences.

You can never know exactly what's going on inside my body. And my brain, the most we can do is have language that has similarities and commonalities around our experiences. So we can kind of find a general space as to what it is where we're both experiencing and what are the similarities and differences.

[00:22:44] Gwyn: Yes. That's brilliant. And I love it. going back to the asexuality, aromanticism, what are some of the other myths and misconceptions that you deal with regularly?

[00:22:59] Aubri Lancaster: So here's one thing I probably should have mentioned earlier. I'm sorry. I don't do myth busting because myth busting ultimately fits us back into that situation of pitting one part of the spectrum against another.

[00:23:11] Gwyn: Awesome. I love it so much.

[00:23:14] Aubri Lancaster: And you know, there's factual real life things that we can myth bust. Sure. But when it comes to myth busting the language of these experiences, I think that just gets us tied up in knots.

[00:23:25] Gwyn: Yeah! That's

amazing. Oh, I love it. This is great. What a great conversation. I, um, I mean, while I don't certainly love to be wrong because most humans don't love to be wrong. There's that weird pride thing that gets in the way. I do love learning and frequently learning comes from these sorts of conversations where it's like, let me try this thing. And you're like, Nope, that's not the thing. And I'm like, Oh, Okay, great!

[00:23:56] Aubri Lancaster: Exactly. No, I know.

[00:23:59] Gwyn: That's so good! I'm genuinely tickled. Um, and a little, like, flummoxed, because like, oh, okay, well, where do we go from here? I mean, I have lots of other questions, but I really, I really do. Are there things that, I'm trying to figure out, are there things that you wish people understood better? Would that be a way to, phrase it in a way that works for languaging?

There's just, I know that there's just so much almost anger around these realities for some people and personal shame that people deal with, um, and frustration, like, they feel like they're broken, or there's something deeply wrong with them. And I want to help them understand that that's not the case, and I want to help other people knock it off.

Marker

[00:24:54] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah. So, I think something that helps with that is understanding what are we comparing ourselves to? We're comparing ourselves to this social construct of normal. But what is normal? There is no normal. If you think about normal levels of desire, normal levels of libido, you know, all of these things, there is no scientific definition of that.

Like, we have so many different answers to that question, but ultimately the word normal, getting back into language here, the word normal, first entered the English language in the early 1800s. It is that new to our language, and it came through, um, first it came through geometry because normal was a right angle. It was a normal angle. And then it moved into comparative anatomy because the neck bone in a mammal versus a human is at a right angle. So it is a normal angle, so it changes into that. And then it moved into this weird thing about comparing, uh, different, types of bodies within a range.

So then it was suddenly a range rather than a specific thing. And as it moved through science and into statistics and into the general use, it has multiple meanings. It means average, mean, median, mode, and best. Because it has also been used through the hierarchy of power structures to try and create this ideal version. That is inevitably based in white cis hetero patriarchy.

So what are we comparing ourselves to? We are comparing ourselves to a non existent ideal based on standards that some of us will never physically or, you know, socially be able to fulfill. So then we step back and go, okay. Well, if there is no normal, what are we doing here? How do we, how do we handle any of this?

And it really just comes back to what works for you, how do you best feel in your body? How do you best relate to the people in your life? What is fulfilling for you? And for asexual and aromantic people, that may mean de centering sex and romance. It may mean finding non sexual forms of pleasure and intimacy, non romantic relationship models. And finding other things to center in our lives.

[00:27:47] Gwyn: Man. Yeah. I feel like I've been taken to school, which is great.

[00:27:55] Aubri Lancaster: it's a paradigm shift.

[00:27:57] Gwyn: Yeah. I mean, yes. And the paradigm shift is not the piece for me because I've been, that is, yes, that's something that I also know what I'm aware of. It's the language part. Um. I had no idea about that languaging, and how it came to be. That's super cool. And also I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. She really could just sit down and read the Kinsey study. Sure.

[00:28:22] Aubri Lancaster: I'm on page 54 now. It is fascinating. And I know that's like, not even what we're talking about here, but I will say it is fascinating to read a scientific work from the forties and just see all of the, the language that gets used, especially some of the derogatory terms that were just normalized at the time. That was just, that's how you, you spoke about certain segments of the population.

Marker

[00:28:53] Gwyn: It's painful sometimes, um, and I have not sat down and just read it start to finish as I mentioned, probably seven times yesterday. It's a, it's a book that I reach for occasionally when I need a citation. But, um, yeah, like, yeah. And it's interesting.

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And now back to my conversation with Aubri Lancaster from acesexeducation.com.

So Kinsey was the first American scientific studying person of sexual realities.

[00:31:06] Aubri Lancaster: Uh, no, but this study, the scale of it, it included 12,000 subjects and very detailed interviews and statistical collections that, um. So far, the first 50 pages are really just about the methodology and the author is, I don't know if it's Kinsey or other authors that are contributing to that part, but just basically bragging on their methodology and how they kind of manipulate people into telling them about their sex lives.

[00:31:39] Gwyn: Oh. Okay. Excellent.

[00:31:42] Aubri Lancaster: But it is the most well known one because it's been cited over 15,000 times ever since then.

[00:31:47] Gwyn: Well, and it seems as though we use that as the standard for sexual sexology and studying. I mean, the Kinsey Institute still exists.

[00:32:01] Aubri Lancaster: It was one of the first ones that really approached from more of a secular perspective, trying to apply a non judgmental approach for the clinicians involved.

[00:32:14] Gwyn: And it sounds like you're feeling like that's not the case.

[00:32:18] Aubri Lancaster: I mean, you know, sometimes you don't realize your own bias until 80 years have passed and somebody else is reading it. So I get that for the time they really were, you know, they, they did have a lot of attempts to make it ethical to make sure that they were getting consent on, you know, answering questions and having these conversations.

And, I feel like there was definitely effort made, uh, especially around keeping the information private. Uh, they even mentioned that there's really no laws at the time requiring them to keep the personal information private, which obviously has changed since then. But the efforts that they went to, they even had codes to make sure that even the people working on the project didn't know what kinds of sexual behavior an individual in the in the study had engaged in.

[00:33:17] Gwyn: Well, that's definitely useful. And certainly lots of good things have come out of it. I'm not trying to disparage the Kinsey Report or His institute or the work that they did. It's just fascinating. Is asexuality mentioned at all? Is that an option in that report?

[00:33:36] Aubri Lancaster: So, I'm gonna see, like, if there's more detail around it, which is part of why I really wanted to read it, but the most popular graph that we use from Kinsey that, you know, you've probably seen is that scale of 1 to 6 from heterosexual to homosexual with these levels in between. And this idea that, as you go from heterosexual to homosexual, you become less heterosexual, and similarly, as you go from homosexual to heterosexual, less homosexual, and you know, as if there's like, you know, it relies on, on this, uh, scale, and then there is factor X.

Which was people who had no sexual activity to point to. And a lot of people say, oh, they recognized asexuality. Well, my understanding of it, and again, um, I'm going to read this in more detail so I can be completely sure on how I'm presenting this, um, but my understanding was that, this isn't about...

First of all, a lot of it is about behavior. They're really studying behavior. They're not focused as much on the internal experience and people's lived experiences. The power is with the clinician. So, it wasn't this necessarily talking about somebody's attractions, or had that breakdown between somebody may be asexual and engage in solo sex or something like that. It was really just these people don't fit this scale. And, um, again, my understanding is there really was no further exploration of what does that mean to have somebody that doesn't engage in these activities beyond just they don't fit our scale.

So, we don't really see that necessarily as a recognition of asexuality. Um, recognition of asexuality, there was some understanding going back to the 1800s. There was, uh, somebody who called like monosexual as an option, um, there, there is like a little reference to the concept over time, but it wasn't until the 70s and the sexual revolution that people were identifying as asexual and putting this out there as an orientation alongside other orientations.

[00:35:52] Gwyn: Okay. I didn't realize that it went back to the 70s. So this goes back to our, this is not discussed. People are not talking about it. So you have found historical references or you can you tell us a little bit more about that?

[00:36:08] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah. So there's a couple of photos of colleges that had, you know, signs that included asexual amongst other options. There was a speech done by, um, Oh my gosh, her name just flitted out of my head. Uh, the asexual manifesto, and it was done for a feminist conference in 1972. Myra T. Johnson wrote a paper in 1977 I believe it was, on asexual and autoerotic women.

And then in 1979, uh, Storms came out with a model of orientation that was kind of a upgrade to Kinsey's model, suggesting that instead of losing you know, one kind of attraction as you move into another that you could have high or low eroticism is how he called it. High or low, hetero eroticism, high or low, homo eroticism. So if you had high in both, you would be in the bisexual quadrant. If you had low in both, you would be in the asexual quadrant. So that was the 1st presentation scientifically of it as an orientation in that sense.

Very, very little academia around it in the 80s and 90s. There was a book called Boston Marriages and Lesbian Bed Death in the 80s. And then there was a survey in 94 in the UK that found that 1 percent of those surveyed identified as asexual. And that's where, you know, that 1 percent number that's often brought up comes from.

[00:37:53] Gwyn: Interesting. Oh, that's so cool. I love all this and I'm totally going to include it in the show notes, all the citations so that people can go and track this stuff down.

[00:38:02] Gwyn: Oh, so we haven't really touched on this yet, but I know that orientation can shift and change over time and people can experience one thing and then slowly change to other things or sometimes there can be a rapid shift. Does that happen in your world as well? I would imagine it does. Not you specifically, but in the asexuality, you can tell me as much you specifically as you want, but that's not what I'm asking.

[00:38:31] Aubri Lancaster: Yeah, orientation is fluid. Gender is fluid. All of these things can change. Um, you know, just as with other orientations, you do have a fair number of asexual or aromantic people that consider it to be a constant in their life as long as they can remember. And then you have some people that are like, you know, I really feel that there was a shift.

You know, whatever reasons, I kind of try and stay away from reasons, because we don't need to find a reason for orientation and gender. Everybody is going to have a different experience of that. Um, but, yeah, these things can be fluid, especially the what we call micro labels. So, the additional terminology that helps us understand the nuances of the spectrums, and some people will have multiple micro labels.

So, again, it's. What terminology is useful to you to communicate your needs and boundaries and experiences and to find your community.

[00:39:28] Gwyn: Yeah, needs, boundaries, experiences and find your community. I don't think I've ever heard it quite so succinctly put. I really, I really love that. It might even be the title of the show because it is, it's really important and, and finding your, your family or community or whatever, like it's part of what makes us human. I think not including the people who feel very hermited and that's fine too, because all experiences are valid. Um,

[00:40:01] Aubri Lancaster: And there's a fabulous author, Bella DePaulo, who does really great work around the concept of being single at heart.

[00:40:11] Gwyn: I like

[00:40:11] Aubri Lancaster: So, yeah, so that's, you know, when, when we talk about relationship models, you know, there is this assumption that, you know, we all must look for the one! And, you know, maybe, maybe there's a little bit of space for multiple ones or, you know, like, with aromanticism, maybe it's not about a romantic one. Maybe it's you know, a platonic one. But then we step back and go, well, maybe there isn't just one. Maybe there's multiple. Maybe we can have a huge group of people that we care about and we love, and maybe we don't have to partner at all.

[00:40:46] Gwyn: Right. And we can define that in whatever way works for us.

[00:40:50] Aubri Lancaster: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:40:52] Gwyn: If you stumbled across a young ish person, early 20s, let's say, and they were questioning these sorts of things, what would you have them ask themselves? Like, how, how could you advise them towards here are some questions to think about?

[00:41:10] Aubri Lancaster: So, I mean, if we're talking about orientation, the framework of orientation that we kind of exist under, requires the questions. What is your gender? And what are the genders of the people you are attracted to? With this assumption that attraction is going to exist and it's going to be an amalgamation of sexual romantic and emotional and probably others.

So, to break that down, we need to really interrogate all of those elements. What is my gender? Have you really spent the time to question what is your relationship to gender? And what is your relationship to other genders that exist around you? What does attraction mean for you? What does sexual experience and interest look like for you?

Do you find other people sexually appealing? Do you find other people romantically appealing? You know, do you feel drawn to cuddle or snuggle with other people? Do you feel drawn, you know, drawn to people's aesthetic presentation? You know, how do you relate to other people platonically? Do you feel like oh my gosh, I really want to be friends with this person. Or maybe you're on the aplatonic spectrum, and you just never really feel drawn to make friends with other people, though you may have friends, you may develop friendships, but you may not ever really go, Oh my God, I need to be friends with that person. You know?

So what is your relationship to all of these different elements? What elements are most important? Do you need to rank them at all? You know, how does that show up for you? And it's an ongoing process. So it's, it's not like you fill out a little questionnaire and now you've got your orientation. You're good to go.

[00:42:58] Gwyn: I want it to be a questionnaire, my badge, my little star on my forehead and, just, you know, that's it. That's all I need. Right.

[00:43:08] Aubri Lancaster: And then at the end of the day, I mean, rather than a question or the answer, you know, it comes to what language do you find most useful for communicating your needs and boundaries and experiences and finding your community?

Marker

[00:43:19] Gwyn: You have a workshop coming up that will be lining up exactly for when I think this podcast will be coming out, which will be in the first week or two of September. So

[00:43:30] Aubri Lancaster: I'm trying to do a workshop every month, so I will probably have a workshop at the end of September. I haven't decided yet which one that's going to be. And then otherwise I have my core training on asexuality and aromanticism at six hours, six asex CEs, and I do that at least four times a year.

So my next one is coming up in September it is coming up in September and then the next one is going to be December.

[00:43:55] Gwyn: That was the one that I was looking at, um, uh, on your website, I think it's September 22nd.

[00:44:02] Aubri Lancaster: That sounds right. I think this next one's an intensive. So it's a six hours in one day with a 30 minute lunch. And I always do like a five minute break on the hour it's on a sliding scale.

[00:44:13] Gwyn: And that's virtual or in person

[00:44:16] Aubri Lancaster: Virtual all of my work is virtual.

[00:44:19] Gwyn: and it's geared towards sexuality,

[00:44:23] Aubri Lancaster: sexuality professionals, mental health professionals, clinicians, but I absolutely welcome anyone who wants to attend. You don't have to be in any, um, you know, field related to this, and it doesn't have to be for professional development. It can entirely be for personal development.

I've had people come just to learn to better understand their own experiences. Um, I had a tarot reader once. So, you know, I'm, I'm absolutely open to anyone who wants to join and, and it can also be really interesting to see how therapists and people in our field are trained on stuff like this. So to kind of learn a little bit of that side of it, I think is insightful for anyone.

[00:45:05] Gwyn: Yeah, absolutely. I would recommend it. And I'm actually considering signing

[00:45:09] Aubri Lancaster: like to have you. Yeah,

[00:45:11] Gwyn: it. sounds, I mean, just this conversation has been really eyeopening for me and really useful. And I'd love to have more of that in my life. And I think more people should do things like that.

[00:45:23] Aubri Lancaster: it would be so helpful on so many levels. And there's a slide deck. So there's visuals.

[00:45:30] Gwyn: Yay!

[00:45:30] Aubri Lancaster: And you get the full slide deck, you get my full reference sheet, like, and, um, and I also currently have a deal that anybody who has taken my core training can audit it a future incarnation of it, uh, for free.

[00:45:48] Gwyn: That's an amazing deal. Wow. Okay. So where do people find you?

[00:45:57] Aubri Lancaster: acesexeducation. com.

[00:45:59] Gwyn: Beautiful, so I like to wrap up my podcasts with a personal question, which is Aubrey Lancaster. What excites you?

[00:46:11] Aubri Lancaster: I get excited by having these conversations. I love geeking out over, you know, my special interests and, you know, like diving into. the weird nuances of the human experience and Deadpool.

[00:46:34] Gwyn: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Aubri this has been really, really fantastic on a personal level, on a professional level, on an educational level. This has been great. I'm so delighted. Thank you.

[00:46:46] Aubri Lancaster: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:46:55] Gwyn: What were your aha moments from the episode? As you could hear I had several. And that doesn't include all the things that got edited out. Which, by the way, if you're interested, you can hear by joining the Patrion. Where I post ad-free and early episodes, as well as bonus content. And for the true voyeurs out there, there are even the raw unedited episodes for every conversation. Well, most every conversation. The easiest way to get to that, to tell me your thoughts, to listen to past podcasts, to read the show notes and so much more is to head over to what excites us.com. And please be sure to learn more about Aubrey Lancaster and what she's doing in the world. By visiting her at AceSexEducation.Com. She has a bunch of resources there for you, including a glossary, and you can catch her monthly workshops, all the things that she's doing. Such great stuff.

What Excites Us is hosted, edited, and produced by me. I'm Gwyn Isaacs. The show is hosted by tickle.life, where they have a bunch of other really great sex positive content. The music is by Steven Kartenberg and Julius H. Thank you so much for listening. And please remember that you are loved. Because I love you.