What Excites Us!

Episode 36: Empowering Fertility Awareness with Sam Leeson

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Gwyn: Hello and welcome to what excites us, the podcast that discusses sex and sexuality through a lens of acceptance and healing throughout time and space, including the here and now. I'm Gwyn Isaacs, a sex coach and educator who firmly believes we all deserve to know and understand how our bodies work.

My guest today is Sam Leeson and we are talking about fertility awareness and the many ways that plays out from the importance of knowing your body cycles, how we can be better at raising children in regards to their bodies and fertility. Planning a family as a queer or trans person, and so much more. Sam is a certified fertility coach and educator, birth and postnatal doula, childbirth educator retired La Leche League Canada leader and parenting coach. Her passion for helping people give birth in a safe and respectful manner was ignited in 1998 after the birth of her first child. Since then, she has had the honor of attending the births of hundreds of babies.

She is dedicated to staying informed and up to date in order to provide the best support and education to individuals and families. Recognizing the importance of inclusivity and diversity in the world of childbirth and parenting she founded BabyREADY. Her mission is to create a safe and respectful space for members of the 2SLGBTQIA+ community to learn empower and support all individuals in their unique journey to becoming parents.

She is a proud mom and has two amazing grown men. She's stepmom to a teenage girl and has a loving wife. As a member of the 2SLGTBQIA+ community Sam has dedicated herself to supporting individuals and couples over two decades providing education and coaching. And guidance to those looking to start or expand their families. You can learn more about Sam Leason and the work she does at babyready.info

hi Sam, thank you so much for joining me. This is gonna be great.

[00:02:25] Sam: Oh, it's my pleasure.

[00:02:26] Gwyn: I am super excited to talk about fertility awareness, which is not really a term that I hear a whole lot of these days.

[00:02:34] Sam: No.

[00:02:35] Gwyn: And I'll admit, the thing that got me super interested in you was the fact that you work with the queer community. But in specific, the fertility awareness part, because that's not something that we, you know, sex ed is, is, is sex is dangerous, right? I mean, it's changing thankfully from when you and I were kids but it's still not a whole array.

[00:02:59] Sam: It's not, it's not a whole array and it's still something, as you say, that's talked about as being taboo, which is a huge part of the difficulty that surrounds having somebody be open to learning about what fertility means for them. And then we really only bring the phrase fertility into play when we start thinking about wanting to create a family.

Instead of actually breaking it down even further and understanding that we probably should be teaching this from grade school. Because young people with uteruses can start menstruating at as young as eight years of age, as much as very few do. It can happen that early. And so they need to understand what exactly that means. Especially in a world that is so social media focused. So they're all constantly trying to grow up faster than they are. Even more so than I think I did when I was a teen and that was many, many years ago. But they're really in a rush to grow up.

So we don't give them the fertility awareness conversation when they're young. We don't really spend a lot of time talking about the fact that the uterus and people with uterus is cycle monthly. So they're more productive at sometimes of the month. They need to kind of lay low. They're most productive at other times of the month. You know, they're, they're most creative sometimes, and we don't spend any time kind of giving any power to that reality. So they just see it as a burden. It's an inconvenience to them.

We don't talk about the fact that menstrual cycles shouldn't be painful. Even for teenagers, we don't talk about the fact that we should be welcoming these changes in our, in our lives and in our bodies, and then we don't talk about what our bodies do as they're getting ready to cycle so that we can prevent a pregnancy as much as conceive a pregnancy, and I think that's the place that we do the biggest disservice. Because if we talked about it a lot from a very young age, one, we wouldn't feel burdened with our cycles because at the end of the day, we can't avoid them. So we might as well be able to feel like we can embrace them and, and wear them as, as a badge of honor. This is what my body can do. And then, you know, we can look at when. If we're in an opposite sex relationship when we want to have physical intimacy, where we need that intimacy to stop if we're not wanting to conceive and where we can let it really flourish if we do want to conceive.

[00:05:40] Gwyn: Oh, there's so much that you just touched on that I wanna talk about. The concept that, If we start education, if we start a mindset early enough that this wouldn't be conceived as a burden,

[00:05:56] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:56] Gwyn: That sort of warps my mind a little bit. To be clear, I am going through perimenopause. I don't have a lot of the quote unquote, normal symptoms. I am having some pretty intense psychological symptoms. Yeah, they're really, really messing with me. But looking back throughout my menstrual history, it's never been great, you know? And I was a hippie. I am a hippie. I embrace our body and the nature of our body and what it can do and how it's this magical thing and still, You know, when I'm bleeding, it's kind of a bummer. It doesn't feel great physically. I struggle with the difference between our capitalist productive societies, what gives you value and the fact that I need to rest now.

[00:06:46] Sam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because we don't place value on that at all. And truthfully, there may have been many things that ancient individuals in organizations and groups did well and didn't do well. But I think what they did do well was the red tent. You're all cycling. Go sit in that tent and somebody's gonna look after you for the entire time that you're bleeding. And you deserve to just be revered and potentially feared for the individual that you are, that you can bleed that much and not die. You must be a little bit scary and a little bit supernatural.

[00:07:22] Gwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And approaching it with this concept of if we start talking about it early enough that it can remove a lot of these mental obstacles, for lack of a better term is wonderful. And so as you're approaching this, fertility awareness in specific to queer folks, And there are a lot of folks now who are trans. All of the different ways that that figures out, how does that play into the work that you're doing, do you speak specifically about your biological sex or are you addressing the whole nature of it?

[00:08:00] Sam: It really depends on who it is that I'm communicating with. Uh, I have good friends with children and I say children because. I'm in my fifties and so anybody under 35 is a child in my mind. But with young adults who are in the process of transitioning. So we spend time talking about what does that mean for them? Do they have a core interest in having a a child at some point in the future that's biologically related to them, and is that something that they want to investigate? How to preserve the integrity of whatever the gamete is that they have, whether they happen to have sperm or they happen to have eggs. And do we, want to go through a process of harvesting some of that in advance of them getting too far onto their journey? Or not?

Because some individuals truly know I never want to have a biological child. Or the idea of harvesting my gametes is just too emotionally dysphoric, so I need to just say no to that. Which means I know down the road I'm going to have to be okay with having a child. That's not biologically related to me, but my mental health is more important than that physical piece. So it really depends on who it is that I'm working with. And then we talk about, especially if someone's been on hormones for a period of time. What does that mean? If they do want to conceive and carry a child or they want to sire a child if they happen to have a phallus instead of a uterus.

All of these conversations come into play and what kinds of things they wanna look for and what kinds of things they wanna take into consideration and what kinds of support network they want to create for themselves. Someone who's been taking additional testosterone for an extended period of time, but decides that they need to come off of that because they want to harvest their eggs, or they want to carry a child in their own body, then those individuals may need some extra support because the testosterone crash is going to be, for most people, really a feeling of imbalance and they, you know, they're gonna need some help to navigate that.

[00:10:13] Gwyn: Yeah. So do you help them create that network for themselves

[00:10:18] Sam: Yep, yep. I help them create the network for themselves. I help them understand what kinds of things they may feel amongst themselves or within their own bodies. What kinds of things they can anticipate, what kind of timeline they may be looking at. It's within my community, The queer community as a whole, it very rarely is a matter of saying, okay, you know what? We've decided we wanna have a family, or we wanna start a family, or, I've decided because I'm single and I wanna start a family, and then just having it happen right away. Because it's not a matter of having an extra glass of wine on a Saturday night, and there you have it. We've got some fun and, and we've got a family. It's very intentional, right? And so we have to go through the process of looking down that road and, and looking at that path.

So I always try to speak to people well in advance. Of them being ready to start that journey. I want them to talk to the financial planners so that they can plan for it, because financially it's going to be a shock. The sticker price of of an intentionally created family is, high and the challenge is it's that much higher at first because so often people end up needing to exhaust a stream of attempts. Especially if it's two people with uteruses or it's someone with a uterus they have to do so many IUI attempts. And have them be unsuccessful before they are a candidate for IVF. And IVF may be funded through insurance, but IUI may not be. So now they've purchased the sperm, but they have to have somebody put that sperm in and it's just all of the processes. So it can be quite costly. And then when we're talking about surrogacy.

A couple I know from France, has had to get an egg donor from outside of France. So they chose someone in Canada and they have their eggs, their fertilized eggs. Now they need to find a surrogate again, someone in Canada, but they cannot get financial support in France because surrogacy is illegal in France. So they now have to come up with the resources themselves and perhaps convince friends and family to put some money in. But they can't go to a bank and ask for that. So, it's not uncommon for it to be in the neighborhood of 70 to $100,000 for a child to come out of that. And don't get me wrong, it's really difficult to put a price on the growth of a family and creating your family, but , it feels very um, elitist. It feels unfair, unbalanced. So that's where we start. We start with the financial planning piece.

And then we talk about, who are you seeing to support you whether it's a naturopath, are you seeing chiropractors? Are you having acupuncture? Who are you seeing to get the emotional support? Because this may be quite an emotional journey. All of these things. So we talk about those support networks and, try to set all that up for a period of time.

And we talk about what the signs and symptoms of fertility are. If it happens to be someone with a uterus, what does your body look like on and around your ovulatory cycle? So when do you have red flow days? When do you have white flow days? How does your cervix feel when you are not ovulating? How does it feel when you are ovulating? Where is your cervix when you are ovulating? Is it high? Is it soft? Is it forward? Is it back? What does your cervical fluid feel like? And, you know, I think personally, especially if nobody's ever been told how to look for these signs, I think that takes a few months to kind of get in the rhythm of documenting every morning when they get up. Sure, you can do your basal body temperature. Sometimes that can be a little bit after. So we, wanna know what's normal for us. So there's lots to take into consideration before we even get to the point of, the starting to try.

[00:14:16] Gwyn: And this all seems very useful for folks who don't want to have children right now.

[00:14:23] Sam: Exactly. Exactly. And that's the thing. We don't talk, we talk about birth control pills because if you've got a uterus, let's just cut off your hormones. It's interesting that those with a phallus and without a uterus never ever get told. That if we could just use this hormonal control, we could control how things go. That's a whole other conversation. Let's not even get into my body, my choice. But anyways so we've got birth control pills, we've got IUDs with, and without hormones. We've got Depo-Provera shots. So hormonal injections, we've got diaphragms. There's condoms. Lots of people like to use pull and pray or the rhythm method or what have you. There's all kinds of different techniques that people use, but the one that we never ever talk about, the one that is the most valuable and the most consistent in helping to prevent an unwanted pregnancy or conception is actually knowing what your body looks like when it's cycling.

[00:15:24] Gwyn: And the problem with us not talking about it is that there's so much information out there and so much of it is not valid information.

[00:15:33] Sam: Right. Because it's not done by the right people with the right interest in mind.

[00:15:39] Gwyn: Right. Or it's, based on a survey of five to 50 women as opposed to a large medical actual study where you can get much more of a baseline. I'm so glad that you're out there doing this work and specifically that you're out there doing this work with language for people who struggle to be comfortable in the bodies that they're in.

[00:16:03] Sam: It's really hard, you know, I was talking to friends of ours when they were working with a fertility clinic and it's a same sex female identifying couple, and when they went to the fertility clinic, they were given paperwork to complete. And one of the individuals was planning to carry the pregnancy and the other had no intention or interest, quite frankly, in carrying the pregnancy, but they were both given the same package of information. And so it wanted a detailed history. And so when the parent who was not planning to carry said, I'm not sure why any of this is relevant. As much as this will be my child, there will be no biologic connection between me and this child. Why do you need this? Oh, well, because we can't give you the one for dads.

[00:16:52] Gwyn: What?!

[00:16:53] Sam: Why can't you just gimme the one for people? But that's it. Like we walk through the doors of these institutions. And as a queer community, we walk through the doors of a fertility clinic and automatically it's assumed we have a problem because cisgendered heterosexual individuals walk into a fertility clinic cuz there's a problem. And if they happen to be a female identifying cisgendered woman walking in wanting to get pregnant and they're single, well, your problem is that you're single, so you're only gonna fill out this form, but obviously you're gonna try and carry your own child and, but I don't necessarily have a problem conceiving a child just because I'm gay. You know what? I just don't happen to have access to the sperm that I may need. So could you have just hook girl up? You know, they just go in with such a narrow focus, which is actually part of why I started really doing more work in the diversity, equity and inclusion realm in the recent past. Going to different organizations and looking at their websites, looking at their handouts and their paperwork and their forward facing, forward presenting persona to the audience that they're trying to cater to and saying, I need to do better.

[00:18:09] Gwyn: Yeah. We really do. So with a lot of cisgendered couples, when they're intentionally trying to procreate intimacy becomes a struggle because it becomes all about the fertility.

[00:18:22] Sam: Sure. It's a chore.

[00:18:25] Gwyn: Exactly. Do you find that as well in the queer community?

[00:18:30] Sam: Certainly it can be that way in the beginning. It's often not a lot of individuals and couples, especially if they are coupled. Trying to start on this journey, do still have that romantic notion that yes, we can't conceive without the assistance of someone else. We can't have a child without somebody else being involved in the process. We still kind of romanticize it. So, you know, a same sex gay male identified couple may decide that on the day that their surrogate is having the transfer done. They may want to go and spend time with the surrogate and make a day of it, make it a spa day afterwards, and do all the things and eat the fries and all the uh, stereotypical things that you do to make that egg stick and uh, you know, or a same sex female couple may choose to spend time, you know, in the fertility clinic asking to be alone and just having a chance to just snuggle and talk and, be emotionally intimate with one another. Perhaps not physically, but emotionally intimate with one another so they can make it feel like a beautiful experience to the best of their abilities in the circumstances.

But it does start to wear on anyone who's continuously having to try over and over again. And sometimes that is because there is truly an issue. And sometimes it is because the 28 day cycle, that is the model for most organizations to use to determine when somebody can get pregnant. Doesn't always work for more than half the population. So it really, it can start to wear and then you see that breakdown a little bit too. And, and that's why I do think that it's so important to have that therapy. and I'm a proponent, I'm a, I believe in the value of therapists. You know my wife and I had a struggle a few years ago where my wife was quite ill for an extended period of time. And we absolutely went and saw somebody to help us learn how to be a couple again, once she was well. And the value in having someone to be your unbiased lens through which to look at how the other person is looking, is talking and feeling it, it's invaluable. And I think especially if it goes on for any length of the time that, that you're just not conceiving the way that you'd hoped you would be. You need to talk to somebody.

[00:20:51] Gwyn: Yeah. Anything that you're trying to do for an extended period of time gets exhausting.

[00:20:56] Sam: A hundred percent.

[00:20:58] Gwyn: And when it's something as deeply personal as making a child, then yeah that makes a lot of sense to me. Steering back towards the prevention a little bit, there's so much misinformation. And these days down in the States anyway, there's a lot of non-information. There are children with absolutely no education whatsoever. Not, not just the sex is dangerous and bad. Okay?

[00:21:23] Sam: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:25] Gwyn: So, and then a lot of these kids are, transitioning or becoming queer in later stages in life and then they have no knowledge of what's going on. How does that play out for you? Are you doing straight up education when it comes to biology and, and what perhaps taking different hormones or in doing different things are doing for folks?

[00:21:49] Sam: When I'm asked to, absolutely I will. I tend to work more with adults than I do with younger people. But every once in a while, I do have parents that reach out and say, you know what, what do I need to know? What do I need to be aware of? What kinds of things do I need to be talking to my children about? And so we'll have a communication with myself and their child or their children, depending on what's going on with them. But you're right, it's not talked about. I think it's truly believed, and I don't understand how, but it, I think it is truly believed that if we don't talk about it, it won't happen because that's worked so well for us. But I think that that's it. And we, and then, and then we let ourselves be embarrassed about it. And that's the problem.

Our bodies cycle, right? Nobody ever wants to think the queen poops, but the queen poops, our bodies bleed. Things happen in our bodies and they just do. It's normal and natural and instead of being embarrassed by it, we should be embracing it. Tell me why the menstrual pad organizations all feel that they need to use a blue liquid to demonstrate for us how absorbent the pad is when they're marketing it into the masses. Every single individual who looks at that knows we don't bleed blue. We just don't. So those kinds of things I find really really difficult because if we're going to make that an embarrassing thing, then, you know, Amy Schumer is in the bathroom, she's handing a tampon underneath. Oh my goodness. You've got your period, not woohoo. You got your period look at you! Right? So until we can get out of that place, We're not gonna start teaching young people about what their bodies miraculously can do.

[00:23:35] Gwyn: Yeah. As an aside, I watched Alex Borstien has A standup that was on Amazon Prime. I watched it last night and at one point she turns to the audience, like don't douche.

[00:23:48] Sam: Good for her for saying it, but why does it take a comedian in the middle of a skit to say it? Because people think that it's just, okay. Well that was funny. Instead of actually, no. Really, really don't,

[00:24:02] Gwyn: Yeah. No, that, that's actually what she did. She was like, do not blow hot air up your cunt

[00:24:07] Sam: Yeah.

[00:24:07] Gwyn: And do not do. And she's like, no, this isn't funny. Like, I'm being serious. Like, these are things and I, and, and yeah. As, and it's ridiculous that it's, Lois Griffin. Were telling us on stage. And she looked fabulous, by the way. But you know, like, but the, that, that's the world that we're in right now. Where it, it, yeah. Amy Schumer, Alex Bornstein, that it takes an exemplary woman who has made it this far to be able to tell us the truth that we really should be getting in eighth grade, ninth grade,

[00:24:39] Sam: at the latest

[00:24:41] Gwyn: Right. and if we're lucky, that's when it begins. and when I say kids, I do also mean people under 35, cuz I'm, I'm well into my fifties. my kid is 23, so like, you know, he's a kid. But for kids, trans kids who, who are, and, I'm so grateful that they are able to access the things that they are able to access, but I don't feel as though they're getting any education with it whatsoever.

[00:25:05] Sam: Depends on where they live, but yes.

[00:25:07] Gwyn: Right. So what are the hormones doing to them? What, shifts are happening in their, biology?

[00:25:15] Sam: If someone who was born assigned female and is transitioning to be what they identify as being male or non-binary. So they add testosterone to their system. Then it really depends on when they start, how that shuts down, the estrogen production and ramps up the testosterone. And then for them, whether they are 14 or whether they're 21 or whether they're 45, that shift has to happen.

And some people feel it. The older they are, they may feel it more abruptly. They have been producing estrogen for much longer, so it's that much more of a, a shock to their system to have that kind of shut down, that the testosterone ramped right up. But then they go through a pubescent period. Where they have those hormones in their system and they're trying to control what, how does that make me feel? How does it change my voice? What does it do to my physiology? My shoulders change, my chest changes, my pelvic region changes both in how it functions and how it looks. So all of these things can happen. And the same goes the other way. It's, different when they are assigned male at, birth and moving to female in the fact that estrogen by itself doesn't work at changing our voices the same way that testosterone would and things like that, but, It absolutely does the same thing. It shuts down that testosterone or, or reduces it.

I mean, everyone has some testosterone in their system. Even though most people who identify as female don't realize that they have testosterone, and our testosterone levels are highest on our day of ovulation. Shocking. You know, but they will have the same thing and they will go through that period of, of really becoming hormonally affected by the, estrogen. And so they may feel that they have tenderness in their breasts and in in their pelvic region. They may feel that their moods feel more unbalanced as they struggle to sort of sort out all of how estrogen can impact a female identifying individual. Right.

[00:27:15] Gwyn: And does it affect their reproductive abilities?

[00:27:20] Sam: It really depends on the individual who starts. If they were already someone who may have struggled with reproductive challenges in the, in the sex that they were assigned at birth, then they may have additional struggles and they may not. I mean, certainly someone can come off testosterone after having been on it for 10, 12, 20 years. And end up getting their cycle back, end up ovulating, end up conceiving and carrying a child without any challenges whatsoever. The rates of fertility challenges can go up somewhat for those who are changing their assigned sex at birth, but it isn't an absolute and I certainly know many who had no issues with it whatsoever.

[00:28:08] Gwyn: So it, it's basically like everything else in the human world, it depends on who you are.

[00:28:12] Sam: It depends on who you are. Yes. I was speaking with my son my eldest is 25, he lives on the other side of the country. And a friend of his is a trans individual. And I said, okay, so these are some things that that person may want to start thinking about because it may be easier. There's no absolutes to know one way or the other. It may be easier to make some considerations sooner rather than later. And it's just, you know, you don't wanna, I don't wanna make anybody feel dysphoric. Ever what they go through is something that's beyond my level of comprehension, because I've never had body dysphoria in terms of the sex that I was assigned at birth. So I don't know what that feels like, but I can certainly empathize that if there are things that they want for themselves, that I can do what I can to provide the information and resources that I can to help them improve the odds of them being successful on their path.

[00:29:09] Gwyn: Yeah. And on the other end of that, for folks who were assigned female at birth and spend a great deal of their lives living non-binary or as a male and then shift out of wanting to take the testosterone, can that put them back into a standard perimenopausal phase?

[00:29:29] Sam: Sure, sure it can. Yep. When we're not continuing, that is the thing. When we, someone is transitioning from the, the sex they were assigned at birth, that hormone shift is going to be something that they have to do for the rest of their lives. Whether they're taking testosterone or they're taking estrogen and, other hormones that may support those, those two primary hormones.

[00:29:53] Gwyn: you know, frequently when I tell people what I do for a living, they ask for a hot sex tip. So what I say, not really knowing them or any of their situations is that most sexual issues can be helped with more and better conversation, or lube or both. Now, conversation is really on you, although I can help you if you'd like me to. I do that as a coach. But when it comes to lube, there are two brands that I always reach for first. Uberlube is my go-to silicone lube. It's pure. It's not full of any unnecessary additives that make it smell, taste, or feel, unlike you me. It comes in a beautiful glass bottle that I'm happy to have on my nightstand, and it's great in most situations. However, if you prefer a water-based lube or have some other intimate needs, I recommend Good, Clean Love. They have a variety of great products to help everything in the bedroom goes smoothly, huh. They've got some vaginal care kits, some cleaning solutions, oils and candles. It's really great. Now you can find an affiliate link for these at the podcast's website whatexcitesus.com. And to be clear, you do help me out when you buy through these links, but I specifically reached out to these companies because I truly love their products and I believe in what they're doing. So help yourself. Help me help these lovely companies and get better sex with better lube. Go visit the links for UberLube and Good, Clean Love at whatexcitesus.com. So if you got to pick what the world did in terms of sexual education in terms of how we proceed with things starting at the very beginning, what would it look like?

[00:31:56] Sam: I would think for me, first and foremost, it would start with basic education about what our bodies are. if this is a finger and this is a nose, then it should be okay for me to say penis, vulva, and vagina. It would be making sure that people know what each part is and what its function is, and obviously be age appropriate. You don't need to spend too much time talking about the clitoris for those who are in kindergarten, obviously. But it is something that should be talked about as we grow that conversation and that dialogue. We need to be open to answering questions honestly, from a very young age. And I think a big part of that is we need to have parents who are more comfortable with what their bodies do and don't do, and what someone else's body may do and not do.

I think that we need to stop with the binary in general. I really struggle when I still go to a department store, which I try not to do very often because generally I'm just overwhelmed going into an environment like that. But I still can see that there's a blue toy aisle and a pink toy aisle, and there's a blue clothing section and a pink clothing section. We need to stop with that because really and truly an overwhelming number of people, and I'm gonna say more of the majority than the minority, find themselves floating somewhere in the middle. Some days they feel pink, some days they feel blue. Sometimes they feel Barbies, and sometimes they feel Tonka trucks. Right

? It's really letting them be who they are so that it doesn't come as a shock to them. Then we be honest with them about what their bodies can do. You were assigned male at birth, or you were born with a phallus, so this is what you can physiologically expect to happen. You're going to have nocturnal admissions. They may make you feel weird because you're not sure where they come from. But that's okay they're normal and you don't need to be embarrassed about it. But I will show you how to use the washing machine.

And you were born with a uterus and you are going to find that sometimes your body hurts in places you didn't even know it was gonna hurt before. And it surprises you. And then someday it's gonna bleed and that's gonna catch you off guard cuz you're not quite ready for it yet. Cuz everybody thinks it's gonna be just down the road. And this is what you can anticipate. Like I just want it to be a conversation.

My wife's favorite thing to say about the queer community is I can't wait and I hope I live to see the day when people come home with the person they love and they never need to come out. There are no coming out stories anymore. We just love who we love and I think that that goes beyond just relationships and being queer. I think that's about the binary as well. This is who I am. This is what I need. This is how I feel. That would be in the perfect world. That's me. Rose colored glasses and all of it.

[00:34:55] Gwyn: Love it. That's fantastic. Are there things that you wanna make sure to say before we wrap up?

[00:35:03] Sam: I what I really wanted to make sure that we spent time talking about, and I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to spend lots of time talking about, just start that conversation with the kids early. So that they know what to expect so that they aren't made to feel embarrassed. I used to have this group of women that I communicated with. We lived around the world, we all communicated through email, and many of the people in the group it all happened to be people who identified as moms. We had all fed our babies from our bodies and some of the people had children who were assigned female at birth, and so when those children started their first menstrual cycle, all the aunties would send them a gift and make it a celebration. I wanna make it more of celebration. I wanna make the hormonal changes that our bodies go through something to be revered and honored and respected. And yeah, that's maybe my biggest message. Let's stop having people feel ashamed for what their bodies do and what they have no control over.

[00:36:06] Gwyn: That speaks volumes to me. Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that well, thank you Sam. Leeson this has been an absolute delight. I have one question that I ask everyone when I finish up, which is what excites you?

[00:36:20] Sam: Wow. Good excite or bad excite?

[00:36:23] Gwyn: Yes. You pick.

[00:36:27] Sam: Summertime and getting out, just being outside by the water in the summertime excites me in the most amazing of ways. The thing that excites me in the most angering of ways is people telling me and other people who live with uteruses every day, what we should do with our bodies.

[00:36:45] Gwyn: yeah, that's, that's really good. Really, really wonderful. And but. There is no wrong answer to the question, but a really delightful way to answer the question. I love that you answered both sides of that, and I also, I wanted to shout out, I love your language. There are no binaries in the natural world, right? The only thing that's binary or manmade computers [00:37:08] Sam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:10] Gwyn: And the, spectrum of life is not at all on off. and yet, And I know this deeply, intuitively my, my own personal message, my own personal life. I have a household of seven of which one of us is straight. So, you know, like, which is great. But I still struggle with the language. And so just because of, you know, I'm in my fifties too. And, and that's just not the way that we were taught. So I, I really appreciate the way that you speak. So thank you so much and in general, thank you. This has been really great. What a fantastic conversation.

[00:37:48] Sam: Take care.

[00:37:49] Gwyn: If you've enjoyed this episode, please go visit baby ready.info and learn more about Sam Leeson's work, BabyREADY.info. Also, be sure that you are subscribed and take a moment to rate and review the show, which you can do easily enough by going to whatexcitesus.com and click the rate this podcast button. If it's easier for you to do it inside the app that you are listening to us now, then please do that. How about now? While you're thinking about it, wink, wink, nudge, nudge please, please. However it happens, rating or reviewing goes a really long way towards helping us reach more ears, which in turn will help the world be less uptight about sex and sexuality. Which is the goal.

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What Excites Us! is produced, edited, and hosted by me Gwyn Isaacs, our podcast host is Tickle.Life. All music is used under the Creative Commons attribution license. The opening song is The Vendetta by Stefan Kartenberg and this is Quando by Julius H. Thanks for listening, and know that however you express yourself sexually and whatever your desires are, you are normal and okay, just so long as you don't harm anyone, and that includes yourself. Thanks for listening. I appreciate you.