What Excites Us!

Episode 42 : The Kink Doula - Mollena Lee Williams-Haas

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Gwyn: This podcast is about sex and sexuality, so please only listen if you are an adult without kids or other ears around that cannot, or do not consent to sensitive language and content. Thanks.

[00:00:22] Mollena: take three. Let's talk about sex. Let's talk about sex, baby, let's talk about you and me. I get you in trouble.

[00:00:30] Gwyn: Get me in trouble. Didn't nobody get me in trouble with,

[00:00:35] Mollena: cease and desist bitch.

[00:00:36] Gwyn: oh, you know what? If salt and pepper said anything to me, I would just be like so delighted.

Hello and welcome to What excites us, the podcast that discusses sex and sexuality from a variety of perspectives, so that you'll believe that you, your interests and your sexual desires. Are all okay. My name is Gwyn Isaacs. I'm a certified sex coach who has been professionally helping folks feel good about their sexuality and how to approach it with glee since 2017.

[00:01:14] I am so honored and delighted to bring you this conversation with Mollena Lee Williams-Haas. She is a powerhouse of an amazing woman who has recently begun a wonderful project called The Kink Doula. Her mission and calling is to share as much as she possibly can to help facilitate for others the rebirth and growth that she has experienced through kink because she, a and I, believe so many aspects of kink can help in everyday life from learning how to negotiate better, to understanding your true power and worth.

[00:01:52] Mollena is a New York City, born and raised writer, actress, BDSM educator, storyteller, and sobriety fiend since March 14th, 2007. As well as being an award-winning executive pervert, she has a podcast called All That and Mo, and regular speaking gigs that I highly recommend you take in if you have the chance.

[00:02:18] Mollena is owned and collared by contemporary composer Georg Friedrich Haas since December of 2013, and they were married in September of 2015. She serves as his beloved slave, submissive, wife, servant, and muse. They are truly a delightful couple, so much so that a ground breaking piece about their relationship was featured in The New York Times in 2016, and then a documentary film was made, which you can watch online in lots of places called The Artist and The Pervert.

[00:02:55] So a note about this episode, Mollena and I had such a great time chatting that we talked for almost two hours, and it's honestly highly entertaining listening to two Gen X Pervs, just chat. So I managed to edit the heck out of it and get it into this episode. However, it's so good and I thought you might enjoy it.

[00:03:19] So while I usually leave these raw chats just for patrons, which you can go and find. If you would like to join us there when we're on Patreon, I'm gonna go ahead and upload the raw conversation next week as a bonus episode. I would love to hear which one you like better, and in general, I'd love to hear from you.

[00:03:40] Oh, and don't forget, I'm doing the little personal tidbit at the end of the episode, so stick around for that.

[00:03:46] Thank you so much, Mollena for coming onto this podcast.

[00:03:50] Mollena: Thank you for having me.

[00:03:53] Gwyn: this is super exciting. I've been following your work for years and years and years. You're doing this really amazing project that I wanna be sure that everybody and their brother knows about the Kink Doula, which is so exciting to see you putting yourself out there in that way that you are making yourself accessible to people to directly learn from is beautiful and wonderful, and I'm so psyched that you're doing it

[00:04:23] Mollena: I will tell you, it took me a long time to even have the guts to do it. Firstly, because of self-esteem issues, because I'm like, who wants to listen to what I have to say? Who cares? And just some random weirdo. You know, who spent a big chunk of her life as a drunk and fucking alcoholic and, you know, who am I to tell people what? And yet over the years, the people over and over and over again saying, you know, you should have an advice column. You should have a talk show where you, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yes, yes. You know, hundreds of people who have no reason to blow smoke up my ass. Clearly you are part of the conspiracy to blow smoke up my ass.

[00:05:05] And then I was at a retreat with Barbara Carrellas, who, you know and she teaches a retreat as part of the Urban Tantra training program. And I have been an assistant and support person for the program for years now. And the last session that I attended, we were talking about stuff and doing stuff.

[00:05:27] A bunch of things happened. I had a really remarkable experience with another attendee. And the morning afterwards, we were talking about seeing that we had done, the experience that we had, that she had felt really safe and nurtured and held in a way that she had not experienced before. And then someone else jumped in and was like, yeah, your writings and your teachings have been really instrumental to me figuring out who I was.

[00:05:54] You asked a lot of questions that then I got to answer and just off of the top of my head, I was like, yeah, I guess I'm just like some sort of kink doula or some shit. And then I was like, dun, dun.

[00:06:09] Gwyn: The angels sing, yeah.

[00:06:11] Mollena: Right. I was like, wait, that's a thing. And one of the other people attending the workshop was herself a doula. And I said, if I were to do that as a thing, is it offensive or problematic or am I stepping on the toes of other doulas? And the reason I asked that is cuz at one point, and this is part of the reason that I shrank back from it, I'd come up to the precipice of doing. I thought maybe I would be a kink coach. Like, you know, like life coaching had become a big thing around the mid two thousands or the mid early two thousands, I guess is when that trend started. And I was like, I could be a life coach for people who were curious about kink stuff. And when I started talking about it out loud, I got stomped into the ground by several people who were certified coaches who were like, you absolutely do not have the right to call yourself a coach or to go and do coaching if you have not had the proper training because you can do so much emotional damage and you need to know what you're doing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:07:12] And that just killed the vibe. And I was like, okay, fine. Fuck it. I'm not gonna go and spend thousands of dollars that I don't have on something that is that tentative and that uncertain as, as trying to start a coaching practice. Because I also watched people launch these sort of coaching practices, and then nothing happened and they're, you know, creeping back at their day jobs.

[00:07:32] And so, you know, that, sort of crushed it. And so when her response to me was if you're not calling yourself a birth doula, then no. She's like, doula just means a woman who serves. And I was like, what? What, what? That's what a fucking, what? I was like freaking out and running in circles. I was like, how did I not know that?

[00:07:56] And, I was beating myself up because I was like, when I first heard the term, I literally assumed it was another word for midwife. And it is not. It can be, but it is not automatically. And so I said, well, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. And then I did one of the second hardest things that I had to do.

[00:08:14] The first thing is to commit to an idea as a. While I don't believe in astrology. I am really very much a Gemini. I mean, it's all bullshit, you know? But I do have a fucking moon and Virgo and Sagittarius rising.

[00:08:30] Gwyn: Jesus.

[00:08:31] Mollena: for all I know, it's a, it's a

[00:08:33] Gwyn: Wow, okay.

[00:08:35] Mollena: mess, it's a mess, bro. This is why I don't believe in astrology. Cause I'm like, why is my fucking chart so terrible?

[00:08:42] Gwyn: It's not terrible. It's complex.

[00:08:46] Mollena: It's a pain in my ass, bro. It is a pain in my ass. It's so like, but the thing that's so funny is it does explain a lot of ridiculousness about my character. I'm like, how can I not give a fuck about this and lose sleep over it at the same time?

[00:09:06] Gwyn: Gemini. Sure.

[00:09:08] Mollena: So it was, what was I saying? I lost my train of thought. So thing with the stuff, the kink doula. And Oh, yes, I, I realized that I was going to need help and that this was not something that I should undertake on my own. And part of my own personal complexity is I hate asking for help. Not because I'm proud, not because I'm, too good for it.

[00:09:28] But because if I ask someone for help and I'm disappointed and someone lets me down, I, I, I so do not want to have that type of energy, which I feel like is against someone. And it's very difficult for me to forgive people. And so I don't put people into scenarios where they might do something that might mean I'm disappointed in them, and then have to have a hard time forgiving them.

[00:09:54] And so this is one of the ridiculously convoluted fucking reasons that I hate asking for help. But I said to myself, this is not a thing you can do on your own. It's physically impossible who you are is not the sort of person who can just keep track of all the threads that need to come into play to do this.

[00:10:14] You can't. So you're gonna have to get help and you're gonna, so I was like, ugh. So I talked to Elise, who is amazing, and who is Barbara Carrellas' right hand bitch when it comes to doing the stuff for Urban Tantra. And I said, if I can get Elise on board, then I will feel like I can do this and it will be a thing.

[00:10:35] And so I was like, all right, Bish look, this is my idea. This is what I wanna do, and I need you to tell me A, if you think this is a good idea, first of all. And B you know, so she went and like wooed away on it and she was like, I'm in, I'm in on it. And I was like, okay, fine.

[00:10:51] And so it was remarkably delightful and wonderful. And what was so great about it is that I was working with someone I really trusted. And we had enough background, and this is, the corollary to my, I don't wanna trust anyone. If there is someone I do trust and I do truly love, and they do shit on me, I know that the relationship has the strength within it to survive that.

[00:11:18] And the thing is that a lot of relationships don't have the what is it? The money in the bank, right? Like in the first few years of getting to know people, there's times when, like, if they fuck up in certain ways, I'm like, I'm done. Because I've just had too many times when people have repeat offended on shit.

[00:11:34] When I have forgiven and overlooked stuff. And this is why I have these, stop gap measures in place, is because I've been traumatized. And I don't wanna just be bitter and shut down. So I say, okay, what's a reasonable way for me to handle this? And I can adjust my expectations and my boundaries, and that's all I can do.

[00:11:53] Once I do have someone I care about and I know and I trust, and the thing is like if Elise fucked it up or fucked something over, I'd be like, Elise, you fucking bitch. What the hell? And this is gonna sound weird, but if I don't like you and I don't trust you, I'm not gonna get mad at you.

[00:12:10] I'm not gonna do the work it takes to repair that relationship. I'm just done with you. I'm just done. I'm just gonna move the fuck on. And thankfully we care about each other and have very similar processes in terms of how our minds work, which is crazy and, and, and, and all over the place. And also very brilliant and really wonderful.

[00:12:35] And she does a lot of like crazy spiritual shit that I. Resist. And then I get like annoyed about, and then I'm like, okay, fine, let's do your constellations.

[00:12:48] And then I like get all this cool spiritual shit happening, and I'm like ok fine, you made your point, awesome. And it took so much longer than initially we thought, because that's how life is. And there was a point where we were like getting close to ready to launch and then our website designer like vanished into the ether. Like literally just like moved to Alaska and just went away. And the middle of the building of the website that was like But the Lord provides not, not the Jesus Lord, Lord Ganesha cuz fuck that other guy.

[00:13:24] I mean, no, fuck him. He's fine. Whatever. He's cool, but he's not my Lord. I like the other one with the four arms and the big belly and the prehensile nose. That's the best part.

[00:13:39] so yeah, so it took us a while, but we were working on it diligently and slowly and being very compassionate about our timeframe. Cause I was like, look, there's no rush. it'll happen when it happens and this is all, this is all good. And then what was really kind of amazing about it is that I had an online friend of mine, someone I kind of knew from the community who we were messaging about other stuff.

[00:14:02] And I had said something about my website thing and she's like, you know, that's my day job, right? So I was like, oh, you're hired. And so it was seamless. Like we lost the one designer and then someone who I really like and, and had found that I could rely on over the course of a couple of smaller graphic design projects turned out to be the perfect person for this other job.

[00:14:24] So it really felt like things were falling into place and, and have started to happen. And, you know, folks are contacting me for little exploration sessions and such. And what's good about it is that I have done the work to put it out there, and that's all I need to do. And not having the pressure on myself is the best part.

[00:14:47] Like it'll happen in its time. It will grow in its time. It is here for when it is needed. And this is sort of the lesson that I have been learning over the course of the past few months, is to relax into the pace of life. That's really fucking hard for me as someone who's an addict, as someone who is veering between feeling like, the empress of everything and the most worthless piece of crap.

[00:15:16] Like, it's like, eh, eh, eh, maybe seven times in a day. Having that cycle. And so being at the point where I can say, I have created this space. I have put things out there, I have the structure in place, still working out the kinks, so to speak, as it were. But the first few sessions that I've had, the people I've spoken with, it has been so remarkable to me how spiritually fulfilling it is to just be open to and listening to another person, like with every cell that I can muster to do so. That's what I love, is just listening to people's stories and then reflecting that back to them. That's my favorite part of this. It's so terrific.

[00:15:58] Gwyn: I'm sort of stymied what a ride

[00:16:02] Mollena: Yes.

[00:16:03] Gwyn: That happens a lot, but also takes a second to, to

[00:16:08] Mollena: All of those things.

[00:16:11] Gwyn: So did the graphic designer do the graphics for the

[00:16:15] Mollena: Yes

[00:16:15] Gwyn: It's phenomenal. So I've never been a professional graphic designer, but I've, certainly dabbled with it. the picture of you sitted with the logo just took my breath away

[00:16:27] Mollena: I wanna send a shout out to Substantia Jones of the Adipositivity project for the photo, because it was really great to shoot with someone that is a buddy and just a homie. So the energy just flows. The pictures just come out beautifully. And to my designer Jenna, who came up with this look and she came with a couple different things and then I was like, this is it.

[00:16:47] I'm so fully feeling this cover of a 1970s self-help book feeling. Cause it was just like, so, it just feels so comfortable and so like relaxed and so Earth Mama ish. And I was like, this is it. This is what I'm trying to convey. And I'm so glad to hear your feedback on that, that it'sworking.

[00:17:07] Gwyn: Oh yeah, it's very inviting, very comfortable feeling and, it's just stunning. Like it literally took my breath away when I saw it come through on the Facebook feed. I was like, that's gorgeous. So

[00:17:18] Mollena: So exciting.

[00:17:21] Gwyn: so it's sort of like coaching what you're doing? Yeah. I mean, I, I suppose that could be a bucket that it goes into.

[00:17:28] Mollena: It goes into it, it slides into various buckets. it varies so far what it has become, and it's very interesting as people have contacted me from all over the map and. I had one instance, it was a one-off. it was pretty much just a pep talk for someone who was feeling stuck and had been experiencing some shame that had been put onto them by other people.

[00:17:51] And after an hour of talking, they were like in tears and feeling great. And I was like, wow, that was spectacular. That was just what they needed. And there was another person who was signed up for a series of chats about their approach to dominant and submissive relationships. Someone else came and just really wanted to talk about issues about race and racism and the intersectionality there.

[00:18:14] And so it changes. So really what I'm there for is to listen to where the person is and see if there's anything that I can help them with. And if there isn't, then to try to maybe brainstorm somewhere I can send them for other types of help. There was one person who I thought really would've benefited from working with someone in person.

[00:18:33] And so I was like, we can talk all day and all night, but what you're looking for I think might be better off with someone who can do more hands-on training for you. And they appreciated that. And then I was just like, great, because I'm not hard lining this, I'm not doing follow up or you know, I'm not calling people again, I'm not like, if you wanna work with me, great.

[00:18:51] If you don't or you forgot, then not a big deal. My bills are paid, I'm well taken care of. So this truly is a labor of love in the best possible way where it's just because I want to be able to help folks. You know? So I have a very generous sliding scale. And I'm just curious and I wanna ask folks the questions that will get them to the place where they're asking themselves the questions that will get them where they need to be. Cause that's what it is, right?

[00:19:24] Like I started therapy again recently. And I realized the best thing, cause my, I'm always so cranky about therapists cause I was like, if I don't, if I feel like I'm a lot smarter than you, then I'm gonna have a hard time theripizing with you, which is, you know, it's not arrogant, it's just the way I am. So I'm not, I I was about to say like, I'm kinda being an arrogant asshole. I'm like, no, no, nope. It's just my me

[00:19:47] and I'm just being honest and it's just, it doesn't feel good. And the therapist I have was delightful by the third appointment. I was like, you know what the thing is that you're asking such incisive questions that it helps me to do my process and that's what I want.

[00:20:03] I'm not trying to get you to fix me. There's nothing you can do there. But if you ask the correct questions, then you're getting me into the place where I can fix myself, right? And then my second part, I was like, you know what the other best part of therapy is? Is that youre not talking about your bullshit.

[00:20:20] Like, there is no point in the conversation where it's gonna become about you. And the thing is like when, no matter how much you love someone, eventually the conversation's gonna be, I guess, just the conversations are right. Like they just move and they flow, and then the person wants to commiserate. So they share their stuff and then you're like, oh my God. And then you're, you know, trying to work through their stuff with them. And then like, I'm like, no, this hour or this 50 minutes, however it is to me, it's about me. It's my fucking time. Focus on me, look at me, me, me, me, me, me.

[00:20:53] And so I'd love to be able to give that to someone else. To say to someone, you know what? You just tell me your shit. I'm only here to try to talk through, walk through ease through whatever the fuck it is you are going through right now, or thinking about or wanna go through or too scared to go through or, or have anxiety about, or just are confused. You know, I'm not gonna fix it or heal you, but I can ask you some very thoughtful questions. And I can provide you with some really good supportive information that will assist you in, moving forward, in pursuing it, if that's what you wanna pursue.

[00:21:30] You know? But so many people think that they have to go out and do a bunch of shit just to be a pervert. I'm like, first of all, you just be it. Just be it. Just do it. It's a Nike thing. Hello. Good morning. I'm a pervert. Nah, how do you feel? Feel better. Yeah, you do now you're a pervert. But it's, so fascinating to me to see how many people had this curiosity and this desire. Just don't know what to do with it. And so it just sort of sits in the shelf in the back of their head and I'm like, take it off the shelf, dust it off, play with it. It's awesome.

[00:22:04] Gwyn: Are you finding, I mean, I know it's just getting started, so who knows where it will be in, in years and years? But are you aiming at people who are just kink curious or people who are one-on-one, or are you finding that people who are more experienced and wanting to look at different things are coming to you?

[00:22:20] Mollena: It has varied a lot. In one case it was literally people who were just starting to explore. And in another case it was someone who probably had about the same amount of experience as I did, was feeling well burnt out and was having some relationship shit that had sort of put them in the place of questioning a lot of stuff.

[00:22:37] And so it varies. My fantasy, and this is part of the reason why I, since I was going to be in Europe and this, this summer, I started putting my feelers out to my European peeps and managed to, it's so fascinating to me how I undermine my own self. Like, I'm like, I kind of wanna teach, but I don't know. Or people, does anyone give a shit?

[00:22:58] And then I literally told two people in two countries, I kind of wanna do some stuff. And then it's like, here's three classes, here's two munches, here's a event in Birmingham that happens every quarter that I'm gonna be teaching at. I'm gonna be doing two lectures here, a mini my, like in, in Austria, in Germany, in, in the UK.

[00:23:18] And my fantasy is like the HBO series where I have every week on three different guests. And we, there's some show like that that's right now, but it, it seems to focus on like building a sex dungeon or something. And I'm like, and that's all cute and that's all really great and that sells, but I want to like, I want it to be like, pimp your brain, right? Like it's not about like building the space and everything else.

[00:23:43] There's so much that we do that the non kink identified people would benefit so highly from. And I wanna talk to people about negotiating a relationship. I was having a hair, weave done, this woman was putting extensions in my hair and had taken a phone call with her partner and I was just like, that was some tense shit there. And then we started talking and I was like, girl, like, hi, nice to meet you, dump your boyfriend. Like, you're not gonna come there. But what I did say was, you know, if you are already having issues with this person, around boundaries. Let me tell you how we handle boundaries as pervert. So I started talking about scene negotiation. I started talking about the fact that like for kinky people, we do what is the equivalent of talking about whether or not you wanna have children on your first date. And I said, the reality is that's the most intelligent thing young motherfuckers could do. Cause you were then you were not wasting your time or their time.

[00:24:46] Life is finite. I don't have the time to date someone for six months and then find out that they wanna have eight children. And I am absolutely not at all fucking interested in that. Or date someone for two years and find out that they actually hate dogs. You know, whatever the fuck it is. Like you vomit as much information as you can think of when you're negotiating a scene with someone.

[00:25:11] You know, like you're like, I broke my arm when I was six. Like I, you know, you're like, you have 10 minutes to tell your life story. Just to give the person, the other person, the idea of who you are and also what your body is doing if you're doing physical shit. And she had like, her mouth was open. She was like, so you can just do that. You can just like sit and tell someone what you want. I'm like, yeah, you fucking can. And I said, if you don't, I said, if you feel uncomfortable or shy about talking about how you want your pussy eaten, don't fucking go on a third date with that person.

[00:25:43] You don't grow into revealing yourself. It doesn't get easier. That is the biggest lie that's perpetuated that somehow you grow into intimacy. How many relationships have you seen the opposite occur? Is it the longer you whistle and the harder it's to say that thing that you wish you'd said before?

[00:26:02] Oh my god. Anyway, so yeah, so like by the time I was done, I had like this really nice hair weave and she was in tears and she was just like, I dunno what I would do. I was like, have the talk, man. Sit and talk to this motherfucker. Y'all have not even sat and had a good talk about this particular issue, you know?

[00:26:19] Oh my gosh, this is what I want. I want to tell the default world about what we're striving for as kinky people. Obviously we fail a lot, but the reality is that's what we're aiming towards is emotional, spiritual intimacy. And there are so many ways that we do it that have nothing to do with pain and, inflicting pain and psychological torment.

[00:26:48] There are people who have entire kinky relationships where pain has nothing to do with it. They're people that have entire kinky relationships where sexual intercourse is not even a part of what they're doing. Right? I've seen couples where like, it's a gay man and a lesbian. They ain't fucking, they're not fucking. But do they have a unique and beautiful bond as master and slave? Absolutely. There's so many pieces and parts to the puzzle that are moving parts that can be put together beautifully if you learn to think outside of the fucking box.

[00:27:20] And that's what perverts are doing. And this is my fantasy. I wanna like go and shake people and say, talk about it. Figure out what the fuck you want first, and then go and get it. But half of y'all don't even know what the fuck you want. You don't, and that's the problem. Well, I'm not getting, I'm not getting, what do you want? Oh yeah. You have a missing person's poster in your heart with no picture.

[00:27:53] Gwyn: Oh, wow. That's a striking image.

[00:27:57] Mollena: That's what the fuck you are doing if you don't know what you're looking for.

[00:28:01] Gwyn: you know, frequently when I tell people what I do for a living, they ask for a hot sex tip. So what I say, not really knowing them or any of their situations is that most sexual issues can be helped with more and better conversation, or lube or both. Now, conversation is really on you, although I can help you if you'd like me to. I do that as a coach. But when it comes to lube, there are two brands that I always reach for first. Uberlube is my go-to silicone lube. It's pure. It's not full of any unnecessary additives that make it smell, taste, or feel, unlike you me. It comes in a beautiful glass bottle that I'm happy to have on my nightstand, and it's great in most situations. However, if you prefer a water-based lube or have some other intimate needs, I recommend Good, Clean Love. They have a variety of great products to help everything in the bedroom goes smoothly, huh.  They've got some vaginal care kits, some cleaning solutions, oils and candles. It's really great. Now you can find an affiliate link for these at the podcast's website whatexcitesus.com And to be clear, you do help me out when you buy through these links, but I specifically reached out to these companies because I truly love their products and I believe in what they're doing.

[00:29:37] So help yourself. Help me help these lovely companies and get better sex with better lube. Go visit the links for UberLube and good Clean Love at whatexcitesus.com

Yeah. So because you are well known as a Submissive slave. Clearly a powerful person. But are you finding dominants being interested in talking to you too,

[00:30:03] Mollena: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It has been, I will say it has been probably about an even split,

[00:30:10] Gwyn: Oh, that's so good.

[00:30:12] Mollena: which is really heartening to me actually, to tell you the truth, because when I first started getting into teaching and lecturing, et cetera, low these decades ago, God, I'm fucking old. There were not a lot of people who identified as submissives and slaves who were teaching at all.

[00:30:30] And there was not a lot of teaching that was about non tactile aspects of BDSM so there were plenty of classes on rope bondage had just started becoming a thing. So everyone was learning shibari. There were classes on, like the first five classes I went to were like knife place, spanking, slave positions, protocol, and etiquette for service, and these were all taught by dominants and tops who were shilling you know, whatever.

[00:30:56] And the dominant that I was in service to was one of the first people to start to teach shibari locally. When shibari started to become a thing in the late nineties, I would say, is when it first started really hitting on the West Coast. And the reason I started teaching was twofold. The first was that I was the stunt bunny for one of his classes because he wanted to have a fuller figured person.

[00:31:22] And because every cuz I was just complaining about it, I was like, why are all the fucking rope bondage models, these little tiny girls who, you can do anything to. I was like, I weigh three times as much as this girl. You can't do the same thing. So you need to teach people how to, you know, like, because I started having people say shit to me. I had a man literally look me in the face and say, you're too fat for suspension. And I was like, bitch, they move pianos. This sounds like a you problem, not a me problem. The fuck are you talking about? But you know what the thing is, bro? It's crazy. I joined TikTok because fucking Sunny Megatron started yelling at me. She's like, you need to get on there and say some shit because the kids are being misled.

[00:32:07] And so I was like lemme just put up some videos and just leave them there so that people can like cross reference of me being. I was just like, if anyone ever tells you that you are too fat for a suspension, what they're telling you is that they are inexpert and ignorant and you have saved yourselves from being injured by that person. Thank you. Because it's a matter of physics and more rope. That's it. That's it. More rope. Think about the physics. Think about leveraging, think about stress points. Put some more rope on that fat ass and go, fuck is wrong with you.

[00:32:42] And we're still having people saying this shit 27 years later, 30 years later. You kidding me? Stop. Stop. Oh my goodness gracious. So I just, I want to be able to say to the planet, to the world, to everybody, you don't have to be a pervert to benefit from what perverts do. Right. You don't have to go into the dungeon and do whatever.

[00:33:09] But having a negotiation checklist when you are talking about sex for the first time with someone, the fact that we are even doing that, Apparently vanilla people are not talking about, they're not sitting down having a conversation fully dressed about what the fuck they're gonna do when they're naked and shit gets intense.

[00:33:26] I'm like, you talk about that first. You better have your shit together. Oh my gosh. That's like panic point to me. I'm like, you're not gonna, oh, no, no, no, no. You need to know first. You don't wait until you're in the suspension and upside down to mention that you are asthmatic that shit up front. PS Wait, hold.

[00:33:50] But the default beats relationships like that. Like you're just supposed to stumble around and discover each other. No, no. Believe, trust and believe that there's going to be more for you to discover. You can negotiate exhaustively and you will still be surprised. However, the hope is that the surprise is not one that knocks you off your feet, but one that at the most maybe brushes you back.

[00:34:12] And so you can say who, okay, thank you. Let's step back into it. Let's figure this out. Like that's the point. That's where the beauty lies. So that's my hope is that like, you know, next time I'm on, yeah, I'm on your podcast and someone's sitting there driving and they're like, yes, this message needs to be brought to the world. And they're an executive for HBO and they call you and they're like, how do I get.

[00:34:36] Gwyn: Please. That would be wonderful.

[00:34:40] Mollena: Because I really feel like we have so much that we do right. And I wanna share that with folks.

[00:34:47] Gwyn: Yeah. No, and, in terms of getting you a show, it seems to me that there's enough people who know enough people that somebody ought to know somebody who's

[00:34:54] Mollena: Someone's gotta, I'm just gonna keep talking it. I'm just gonna keep doing it. Cause I was like, eventually the thing will happen.

[00:35:00] Gwyn: Yeah. Totally manifest that shit

[00:35:03] Mollena: yes. Woo.

[00:35:10] Gwyn: Oh, it's so exciting. It's really, it's so wonderful. So having read both the books, two books, right? The Taboo Book and the Playing Well With Others and, they're things that are not generally talked about. Like, yeah, we get the, we get the Spanking 101 classes, we get, the very basic beginnings. There's so much beginner stuff, which is great. I mean, hallelujah, that it's out there. I'm so glad that it's out there. But there isn't a lot of getting into these deeper, more intense places and how to do it with other people as the other book, the Playing Well With Others.

[00:35:45] And so I really, really appreciate those books. And then the fact that you are now making yourself available for folks. You know, not just randomly available, but with certain, but with guidelines and appropriate natures. It's, I I just feel like it's such a, a blessing to, the community, to people, to the world in general. And I'm really delighted and grateful

[00:36:11] Mollena: Thank you.

[00:36:12] Gwyn: Yeah, yeah, and, and like truly heartfelt. I really appreciate it.

[00:36:18] Mollena: You. [00:36:20] Gwyn: yeah. And if for no other reason than if, you know, go to Mollena. Like I don't this, I I'm not in the place.

[00:36:28] Mollena: She's got stuff she won't, she will not shut up.

[00:36:32] Gwyn: No, not at all. More like she will be able to tell you what it really is and be honest about it and Yeah. Not that I would send you fuckery cuz you know I'm not an asshole.

[00:36:44] Mollena: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Enough of that actually, actually did have one person who about halfway through the little interview thing, I realized that she had not called at all for, for kink doula reason. She, she had an issue with something I had said at a keynote speech.

[00:37:01] Gwyn: Oh,

[00:37:01] Mollena: You know that thing where like, you're like, did you seriously come into my workplace essentially to like white woman about a joke I made at a keynote speech? Yeah,

[00:37:11] Gwyn: my fucking God.

[00:37:13] Mollena: Yeah. Yeah. and the things that, like, I was trying to be professional and do the whole thing, but what I really wanted to do was say like, are you fucking kidding me? You literally like, the thing that was crazy about it was I did a keynote speech at a leather convention and it was a big fucking deal.

[00:37:29] And at one point I was quoting another person who was in the room and he is a leatherman I respect so highly. And I said, I'm gonna quote Master Skip. And I said hopefully I get the quote correct. I said, Master Skip hit me back if I don't. And I said, okay, for all you white people I'm not actually inviting him to strike me. This is AAVE African-American vernacular English.

[00:37:53] Like I made a little joke of it. People are laughing. And so apparently this bothered her and it just ate away at her for the rest of the weekend. And she just was like, wanted to know basically like, why is it okay for her to make a joke about white people being stupid? And I was like, I didn't say anyone was stupid.

[00:38:11] Ignorance is not stupidity. I made a joke about white people not knowing an AAVE term which is a cultural reference. And it's in the same way that people explain shit to boomers or, you know what I mean? Like that sort of like OK Boomer sort of joke. But it's like a thing Part of me was very upset because I wanted to tell it to fuck off, but I said, you know what? Use this as a learning experience. See if you can, you know, tell her to go fuck herself. Politely. And I did. I felt like I was quite successful in that.

[00:38:40] Gwyn: Oh my God. I would love lessons on that firstly. I dunno how to do that at all. And I just go, oh, this isn't worth my time. And I just walk away.

[00:38:58] Mollena: it's one of the things that I don't always manage to do, but I do work on it. And some of that is straight up survival technique, because as a black woman, there's just too many times where the type of anger that is completely allowable and understandable could get me shot,

[00:39:20] Gwyn: right.

[00:39:20] Mollena: Or handcuffed. So the snappy comeback or the spicy retort is something that you try to hone. The problem is, if I don't have the spicy comeback, then I'm like waking up at 4:00 AM for the next six weeks going, oh, I shoulda said,

[00:39:40] Gwyn: I mean, yeah, that, I think that's, that's humanity right there. Or maybe that's just those of us who are neuros spicy. I do that too. Like, God dammit, I should've said the thing and now I won't say this thing, and now I'm gonna perseverate on it for six months.

[00:39:57] Mollena: Exactly. And then I sit there and I'm like, we're just gonna reminisce about the times that we did kill it in the spot. Like years back, I was at a show with a friend of mine, my best friend Julie, and we're sitting, waiting for the show to start. It was, I don't remember which Shakespeare it was, but it was some Shakespeare show that we were seeing up at Marin Theater Company. This is when I still lived in the Bay Area. And as I'm sitting there, I feel a hand stroking my head. It is not Julie.

[00:40:28] I see her looking behind me frozen, just this like bug eye look. And I look at her and she's like, oh. And I'm sure she's like, I don't even know what's gonna happen next. And so there was a couple of white ladies sitting behind me and this woman had just started patting my head, stroking my hair. I sat there like my, I felt my soul, like, leave my body in with just so much rage, but I didn't say anything. I didn't move. And like a good five seconds goes by. And finally she leans forward and says, oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist your hair. Just looked so soft and so wonderful.

[00:41:09] I let her sit there as she trailed off and I said nothing. And I just slowly started turning my head around to look at her and I caught her friend's eye first cuz her friend was sitting a seat away from me. And I just looked and I could tell, and like her mouth, like snapped shut like she did that. And I was like, okay, the look is ready. Great. I got it. And as I turned around to this woman, like she paled and backed up and flinched and I just stared into her eyes for like a good five seconds. And then I said, you know what? It's been a good solid 300 years since you were allowed to do whatever the hell you wanted to me.

[00:41:51] Dead fucking and then I took, as long as it took me to turn my head backwards back around, and Julie was like, she had her eyes squeezed shut. And she was just shaking. And I was like, don't you laugh? And I was like, bitch, you better not.

[00:42:13] I'll tell you they did not come back after intermission. I don't, I was like, she got through the first act, but she didn't come back. I am assuming either she moved or she was just so traumatized. I hope, I hope, she didn't move. Different seat. She could have just done that.

[00:42:28] That was one of the moments where I was just like, oh, ooh. And Julie was like, I just felt like I was blessed to be able to witness that shit.

[00:42:39] Gwyn: that's fucking beautiful.

[00:42:42] Mollena: I was like, so anytime, like some white woman, white woman's me and I don't have the comeback. I'm like, don't ever forget Marin. You always, you will always have Marin girl.

[00:42:54] Gwyn: Oh my God, I, the audacity of some people,

[00:42:58] Mollena: Dude, it was so crazy. It was so crazy.

[00:43:03] Gwyn: I Oh,

[00:43:04] Mollena: And the thing is like if you, if you are not culturally American, there certainly are cultures where touching is different, right? Like, like there's other shit. It's part of the reason why if I ever decide to go to China. I'm bringing a bodyguard. Cuz I have heard some stories and I have seen some video and I'm like, nope, I am not your cultural exchange negro.

[00:43:28] I'm not gonna be that black person who's okay with what y'all are doing. Cuz apparently, like in the larger cities, it's not as much, it's not as prevalent, but like if you go anywhere, like outside of Beijing or someplace where there's sort of more accustomed to tourists yeah, they'll touch you. And I'm like, no, no, don't touch me. And this is not even like, this is beyond like a race thing. This is just like, don't fucking touch me bro. Like people I know ask if they can touch me. How do you think you get a pass? Like, people I know are like, Like, you know, you do that little gesture like like whatever you need, but like, you don't just roll up on someone and start. I'm not that guy.

[00:44:18] Gwyn: Yeah. No, that's some nonsense. I'm so sorry you had to go through that

[00:44:24] Mollena: It's interesting because when I first got involved in the kink and the BDSM community, I had this idea that kinky people, because so many of us are nerds and dweebs and dorks and weirdos and outcasts, that we would also have that kind of forward thinking mentality when it came to issues of gender and race and all these other things, and it's not true.

[00:44:44] It's like, you know what I finally landed on? I was like, look. It is a microcosm, not a utopia. It is not that the cream of the crop has been skimmed off, and those are the perverts. It's a core sample of everything from the best of the best and the pures of the pure to the serial killers, right? Like it's everybody. Everybody's here and most of us are just doing our best.

[00:45:08] And it's one of the, one of the other reasons I was really driven to teach. I was at a class on rope bondage and the teacher was talking for five minutes about how checking the fingernails was an excellent way to check for circulation. I was like, what if person's black? What if they're black? I mean, I'm medium tone and my fingernails are a different color. I said, if you're darker than me, it's not gonna help you at all. If you're a white person, you're not gonna know what to look for. And I said, you're, whole, like skin, like looking for redness or whatever else is not gonna help because my skin doesn't look like that.

[00:45:41] When it is stressed. It doesn't look like that. So do you have any advice? And her response was, oh well I haven't tied up any black people. I was like, okay, then you should say that at the top of your class, your class is for white people. And there was this huge uncomfortable silence. I'm like, what? Your class is for white people. Your class is not rope bondage for everyone if you don't know these things. So stop.

[00:46:10] And then I'm the bitch, right? Like, ugh. And I was like, let me just go out and just say the things. Let me just empower other brown people to also speak up so that when you're in the classes, you're making sure. You know, someone was doing a class on piercing, and I was raising my hand. I was like, what if I was like, how do you handle this with keloids?

[00:46:32] What are you doing to help avoid long-term scarification with this piercing? If you're using high gauge needles, you know, the high gauge needles have a much higher percentage. I'm like, I would like to show you, you're talking about this type of, of scene, like it never leaves marks. I can, like, for three years I had marks on the back of my legs from a piercing scene. Thank God that the woman who did the piercing scene was an anal retentive fucking maniac. The fucking maniac part was like stronger, was the strongest part. Fucking terrible human being. Oh my god. But the, the, the marks looked fantastic because they were equidistant and balanced and gorgeous cuz that's the kind of piercer she was. But I said, you know, you need to understand that for many people with darker skin, I said, and some Irish people, there's a whole chunk of Irish people who get keloid scars as well.

[00:47:27] It's very interesting. A piercing can leave a scar or a mark that might take a very long time to heal, but y'all won't fucking know that. And you're just like letting people go do whatever the fuck. You know? I was like, single tails. They can leave very serious scars. I mean, you're not gonna look like the back of that poor ancestor.

[00:47:47] May he rest in, in power forever. In this one very famous picture of a slave who had been repeatedly whipped on the back to blood. But I have several scars that took many years to clear up from the type of whipping that would not have phased the skin of a pale caucasian person. I think this is why the intersectionality is important.

[00:48:08] This is why it's critical that you have teachers from varying backgrounds. So many event producers wanna act like this is some sort of woke bullshit. I'm like, no, it's fucking safety. It's because there are differences. It's because it's a real thing. And if you have taught people how to look for warning signs and you haven't taught that, the warning signs for skin differences and changes is going to be different for, you know, depending on the melanin content of the skin, depending on the fat content of the skin, then you're doing people a disservice and you are not inclusive.

[00:48:43] So, you know, whatever, whatever. Woke culture uh, Yet another time that Caucasians ruined a perfectly innocent word.

[00:48:53] Gwyn: Oh my God.

[00:48:56] Mollena: I was like, what means you are aware of what's going on around you and you give a shit? How did you criminalize that? How did you make that a bad thing? Oh my God these motherfuckers,

[00:49:12] Gwyn: as a Doctor who fan, I am deeply offended that Tucker Carlson wears a bow tie. You ruined bowties. Oh my God.

[00:49:28] Mollena: Son of a bitch.

[00:49:29] Gwyn: Right? And I didn't know that about Irish people, and I'm wondering, I'm sitting here wondering if, if that's also for Jews because I also, I mean, I don't keloid the way that most black people do, but I definitely keloid more than most white people do.

[00:49:45] Mollena: Might be, there might be some, because there's, there's a couple of, like, there's intersectionality, like for example Jews, black people, lots of Asian people lactose intolerant for example, right? Like, when I was still lactose intolerant, I outgrew it middle aged, kicked it outta my system. Dunno how that happened. Jai Ganesha very happy

[00:50:05] about it. But like, when I was taking like lactate pills and I'd be out and like, if I was low, I'm like, oh my God, I don't have lactate pills. It would always be like the two Koreans and the Jews. It'd be like, I got, I got the Lact. And there are these things where they cross over.

[00:50:21] Right? And it might not have to do with, there might be some other genetic shit because obviously there's all sorts of stuff, information coming through. But it's like, what was the other one? There was another interesting one. There was the, oh, I have a Thalassemia, which is a type of anemia that apparently is shared with a lot of African people and there's a whole Sephardic stream of, you know, a bunch of, and that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Right? you've got a lot of intersectionality happening there where our blood cells are too tiny. And I was like, what the, what the hell? What the fuck is that? I was like, bodies are ridiculous.

[00:50:56] Gwyn: They're very weird. Yeah. Bodies are weird. Frequently, I, I mean, at least once a day, I literally say that out loud and I live by myself. That

[00:51:09] Mollena: And your body's like, I know, right.

[00:51:13] Gwyn: What the fuck? Oh my God. So I could literally talk to you all day.

[00:51:22] Mollena: I should probably start packing cause we have to move tomorrow. This is my favorite part about this type of trip. I, I actually do dig this sort of like, five days here, five days there, a week there kind of thing. But having to move your shit. I'm like, oh, I gotta move.

[00:51:37] Gwyn: And I've seen how you travel. You don't travel light.

[00:51:41] Mollena: Well I will say for, for me, for this amount of time. I have one large and one small suitcase in

[00:51:46] Gwyn: What?

[00:51:47] Mollena: Yeah. For three. Yeah. I really, really, it took me several months to figure out like, A wardrobe thing. Like I actually bought a couple of there's this's this huge push towards a wool stuff. So like this whole Marino wool thing that's supposed to be like, perfect for any weather, perfect, blah, blah, blah, blah. So like I did that capsule wardrobe thing where I like sat and I was like, okay, this with this, these, with these three things, these with these four things, everything has a multiple use.

[00:52:16] Gwyn: rock on.

[00:52:18] Mollena: You know, I got myself down to like four hats.

[00:52:21] Gwyn: That's impressive.

[00:52:23] Mollena: Yeah. Thank you. so I am extremely proud because with this much moving, I was like, I can't for three months under normal circumstances, like, and I'm doing and I'm teaching and we have premieres like

[00:52:36] Gwyn: Yeah. You have to look stunning and you have to be able to move comfortably.

[00:52:40] Mollena: yes. And I like the fact that I did it in one large and one small suitcase. I'm extremely proud.

[00:52:46] Gwyn: Props. Yes, for real. That's, yeah. I pack like that to go away for a week, so,

[00:52:52] Mollena: yeah, right.

[00:52:53] Gwyn: and I don't wear stunning hats. I wish I did

[00:52:56] Mollena: Oh, like, right, like this is like, I would not roll into any leather convention with this amount of shit like this. a weekend.

[00:53:06] Gwyn: Right, right, right. Oh my gosh.

[00:53:10] Mollena: Oh my God. but yes, so I did the damn thing because I was like, I'm gonna be getting on and off trains all over Europe and as it is, so many of the trains just don't, first of all, there's no checking your shit like on Amtrak. That's not a thing.

[00:53:25] Gwyn: Right.

[00:53:26] Mollena: And a lot of the trains don't literally have like maybe in one, in the center of the second class car, one rack for shit.

[00:53:34] So everyone, you either have to put it above or sort of hold it next to you as everyone kind of wiggles through the aisle. it's a one shortcoming of these trains. They're not built for tourists. They're just built for like, oh, I'm just spending the, I'm just going, for the weekend to wherever it's, it's, it's commuter shit.

[00:53:51] And so like you see the two, like you see tourists get on and looking around like, oh my God. Like there's nowhere. Find an empty seat and hope no one sits there. Like that's the other thing is that you just look and you see there's no reservation for the seat. They have a little like lighted thing and you hope to God no one needs that seat and you just jam your suitcase there, keep your fingers crossed.

[00:54:09] So that's a bit of a drag. And I was like, I don't wanna deal with that with two huge suitcases, you know? At least if, if I have one small suitcase, at least I know one can go up and I only have to deal one.

[00:54:20] and I'm very glad that I had the discipline to do so cause holy shit

[00:54:25] Gwyn: Yeah. That's amazing. So I, I wanna just real quick say thank you so much for coming on. This has

[00:54:33] Mollena: thank you. It was fantastic.

[00:54:38] Gwyn: All right.

[00:54:40] Mollena: Love you. Thank you so much.

[00:54:43] Gwyn: All right, talk to you soon. Bye.

[00:54:45] Mollena: Bye.

[00:54:51] Gwyn: Wasn't that great? Oh my God, I so appreciate Mollena Lee Williams-Haas in so many ways. Please go find her podcast. It's called All That and Mo, and then visit kink doula.com. That's K I N K D O U L A. Dot com and you can learn more about her offerings there. And then go ahead and schedule that call and you get to talk with her yourself.

[00:55:18] You'll not be disappointed, I promise. And then come back next week and then you can listen to the whole raw conversation and let me know which one you like better. If enough people tell me they like the raw stuff, maybe we'll switch the format altogether. You never know. Let me know what you think.

[00:55:38] I really do like to know what you think. Take a minute to rate and review What Excites Us, because that helps lots of people find it, which in turn will help those folks and others lead happier, more satisfactory sex lives with less shame and stress, which will ultimately make your life better because the world will be a happier place. So easy to do. It just takes a minute and all the wonderful things it can bring, you can do that and any number of other things. over at whatexcitesus.com.

[00:56:12] What Excites Us is produced, edited, and hosted by me. Gwyn Isaacs, our podcast host is Tickle.Life. All the music I used is under the Creative Commons attribution license.

[00:56:25] The opening song is The Vendetta by Stefan Kartenburg, and this is Quando by Julius H. If you have music that you would like me to use, please let me know. DM me, send me a voicemail. Whatever it is. I would love to have different music. I just don't feel like going and looking for it.

[00:56:44] So the tidbit, as a young person, I believe I was maybe 20. Before I left Las Vegas. I lived in a clothing optional apartment complex. Now, at that point, I wasn't a naturist per se. I just thought it would have more of a communal vibe because it's hard to behave like a jerk when your junk is hanging out. I loved that apartment. It had Mid-Century mod decor, and one of my fondest memories of the time was when I was tripping on mushrooms by the pool, watching the moths make trails in the glow of the bright pink neon from the Flamingo Hotel sign that was just a block away. If you have memories that you'd like to share with me, you can do that at whatexcitesus.com by hitting the voice memo speak pipe button, and thanks for listening. You rock, and I really hope you know it because I know it.