What Excites Us!

Episode 46: HypnoKink from the Bottom's Perspective with Panda

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Gwyn: This podcast is about sex and sexuality, so please only listen if you are an adult without kids or other ears around that cannot, or do not consent to sensitive language and content. Thanks.

[00:00:18] Panda: yes, I'm a submissive. And I'm clever and brilliant and powerful as fuck.

[00:00:29] Gwyn: Hello and welcome to What Excites Us, the podcast that discusses sex and sexuality from a variety of perspectives. My name is Gwyn Isaacs. I am a certified sex coach who has been professionally helping folks feel good about their sexuality and how to approach it joyfully since 2017.

[00:00:52] HypnoKink is truly fascinating to me, and in this episode, I'm speaking with Panda, the other half of Pandastory. love. PandaPet, who uses pronouns it and they, is a polyamorous pet with a penchant for the use of alliteration. It has been a long standing member of the New England and D. C. North Virginia communities and has taught for a fair number of hypnosis and kink conferences. A tireless volunteer, it has worked behind the scenes on educational programming at a handful of kink conventions for the past 10 years. It co founded Consolation, a Discord community that offers kink education, with its master Hypnostory and their partner Yoshi.

[00:01:39] Unashamedly itself, in all things, it is an advocate for the Darklings, Pets, Age Players, Neurodivergents, and Queerdos of our community. We talk about what hypnosis feels like, some common concerns, phases of hypnosis, what a pre talk is and how it's different from negotiation, safety precautions, agency, and consent violations, as well as some personal stories from Panda and really so much more.

[00:02:10] I will say that if you are a fan of the kind of episode where two people are just chatting, vibing, and generally going off the rails a little bit, this is a great one to join the Patreon for. We talked for more than two hours. We had an amazing time, although there was some craziness happening in the background. And if you enjoy that, you can hear the raw conversation over on Patreon, which you can go to directly by going to patreon. com slash what excites us or head over to whatexcitesus. com to see all the links there. Of course, it's also in the show notes.

[00:02:48] Should we talk about hypnosis?

[00:02:49] Panda: Probably.

[00:02:50] Gwyn: Let's start with this. How did you get into hypnokink, into hypnosis in general?

[00:02:56] Panda: So, I came, theoretically, pretty late to the game if you talk to a lot of hypno kinksters. Like a lot of people are into it from like, childhood, you know, like you have that instance or couple where you're like, oh this is doing things to me and I don't know why. Uh, For a lot of hypno kingsters it's like Ka from Jungle Book. Or like, really anything involving mind control. There's a lot of mind control in cartoons.

[00:03:22] Gwyn: Like Hypno Frog?

[00:03:24] Panda: Yeah, but also, like in those superhero... Like made for TV series, stuff like that, where there's like always some tropey villain who's using mind control Neil Patrick Harris voiced one called the Hypno Meister that had a song and everything.

[00:03:41] So that's a lot of people start out, but I actually came to it through people. So I've been a kinkster for God like almost 15 years since I turned legal. And I did a lot. I was always in the tickling community. And like, that was the one kink that I knew I had right out the gate. It was like that bondage, and I was pretty confident I was gay. Just from dreams and like interests and things that I had. Worked for a general kink conference for a very long time. That is no longer happening. It was called the fetish fair flea market. It was a big thing.

[00:04:17] And I met Hypno Story, my partner, and their partner Yoshi, through that con, because they were teaching, I was on staff I was also doing kink education on my own. Taught at that con, taught in DC and hadn't taught a ton yet, but I was mostly on staff for a few cons. My friend dragged me to a Hypno lounge one day, Which was like a thing where hypno kinksters gathered to socialize and do hypnosis.

[00:04:48] And like Hypnostory wanted me to like go to this intensive they were doing, but I couldn't go. We kept talking via email.

[00:04:55] Next year I'm their liaison for something, so we keep talking. I'm asking questions. And then that was it. Like, maybe less than a month later, we were playing, and then pretty quickly we were dating because I'm poly and intense, and it's how I do things and then a year and change later, after doing hypnosis almost every single day uh, long distance, I moved in with him. And now we own a business and do HypnoPorn and education, mostly around HypnoKink. So, zero to intense and totally not surprising for me.

[00:05:40] Gwyn: Right?

[00:05:41] Panda: But it's been really fun, like my first HypnoCon, I demoed for seven classes for HypnoStory.

[00:05:49] Gwyn: That seems like a lot!

[00:05:50] Panda: It was a lot, it was a lot, but it was really fun. I basically spent the whole weekend being kind of altered in some way, shape, or form, and I could not imagine a better way of being.

[00:06:03] Gwyn: Neat!

[00:06:05] Panda: Yes. It was really fun, especially because I'm almost always on staff for cons, in like some way, shape, or form, or teaching, or something, so I didn't have to do shit, and that was great!

[00:06:17] Gwyn: Right, because you're clearly a person who jumps in and does things.

[00:06:21] Panda: Yes. I'm the chronic volunteer, I am the, if I feel like I can lend something, then I'm just going to do it, and not worry about my spoons until I'm dead afterwards, I'm like, why did I do this?

[00:06:35] Gwyn: I am so familiar with that. So you mentioned being altered. What does that look like? feel like?

[00:06:43] Panda: So if you're familiar with the sensation of being high and maybe slap that on with subspace, rope space that kind of like, I'm just existing and there are no thoughts behind these eyes, and it's just kind of great and you're just kind of vibing. That's what it feels like, at least for me. And obviously that'll depend on the intensity of like what we've done. And how much hypnosis we've done.

[00:07:16] There's this really fun thing called fractionation, which is where you're like yanking somebody in and out of trance a bunch of times, basically. And people wouldn't call other versions of it, fractionation, but you can do that with headspaces too. So even if you don't do hypnosis, if you can imagine, if you're, if you ever switch, if you yanked yourself between topping and bottoming and like going back and forth between those headspaces, it'll alter the crap out of you in a really fun way where it's kind of disorienting and overwhelming to the point where, like, you just start having less thoughts because your brain is escaping. It's like, I don't know what to do with this input, so we're just going to stop. And For a lot of us, that's why we do it.

[00:08:18] Even if we don't all share the same altered kind of feeling, which a lot of us do it's to make the thinky thoughts slow down. Because a lot of us are super neuro spicy or like over thinkers or type A people of some way. Who have a constant dialogue, overthinking, analytical side. I have a radio constantly going in my head. And it's really nice to quiet that once in a while or all the time. Depending on your level of interactivity there.

[00:08:55] Gwyn: It sounds like it's kind of a little bit like for people who aren't familiar with being altered through herbal methods. It sounds like an endorphin rush after the rush is done.

[00:09:07] Panda: Yeah.

[00:09:08] Gwyn: Like where you're just kind of blissed and you're like, Ah.

[00:09:13] Panda: It's so pleasant. And I mean like that part of it is the same as, as you would be if you were doing any other kink. So like, post hypnosis scene is like one that altered feeling really comes for me. And I do the same thing with rope. When I'm being untied or when I'm being like let down from suspension, is when all the endorphins are happening and like, I'm like, Oh, things hurt.

[00:09:37] Yeah. And then I like laugh my ass off, like while they're happening. Cause it's me. And masochists and that's what you do. And then, you know, you just lay there blissed out for a while. Same kind of concept. But with hypnosis, it's really interesting because you can kind of watch it happen. You're more, or you can be more cognizant of like, this is a thing that is happening. I can feel myself getting increasingly altered.

[00:10:04] Gwyn: Wow.

[00:10:06] Panda: It's really cool. It's probably not everyone's experience because some people do have spontaneous amnesia where they don't really remember what happened unless they're told to. A lot of people are just like so far gone in trance that they don't really pay attention too much as to what's going on.

[00:10:27] But there is this thing called the hidden observer. But for me, the hidden observer is the one who knows exactly what is happening to me most of the time. Is analyzing often what the top is doing to me. And is also like, ooh, this is great, this is hot, that feels good, let's keep doing that thing. And that's usually the part of me that's able to like, speak in trance, and like, say that like, something is green, that like, I want to keep doing it. Or is the part of me that'll be like, hey, yellow, like, I need to lay down because my back hurts.

[00:11:06] Simple things like that. But is also the part that's like, Weee! I'm getting increasingly altered and we like this! So it's fascinating that like, you can know that you're going somewhere, like mentally far away, but still be entirely cognizant of what's going on.

[00:11:26] Gwyn: Yeah. Yeah, that's really fascinating. Are there different states when you're hypnotized?

[00:11:35] Panda: It's a little wibbly wobbly timey wimey, but... Everything is but everything is kind of a metaphor. So the one we use in the hypnosis community most often is deep, quote unquote. And that like usually the deeper you are, the more in trance you are, the more out of it you are, the more hypnotized you are, whatever language you want to use there, because there are several different schools of thought on the matter.

[00:12:04] By the way, if you want to actually get real information on this, that's science y and not my wibbly words Sleeping Girl, that's the word sleeping and then IRL has made a free hypnosis education website. That's all articles and they, they know so much about the technicality of hypnosis and language and how it all works way more than almost anyone I know. So they're great for that.

[00:12:33] Gwyn: Well, hold on. Let's just plug your, your thing for a second here.

[00:12:36] Panda: Oh, that's true. Yeah. And Hypnostory and I also teach a much more formal, like, less cas chatty version of our 101 class. It is on our website, which is www.pandastory.Love, and it is a five hour class. There is a bonus hour of content that ended up being a scene because we meant to make a demo and accidentally had a 1 hour scene.

[00:13:06] Gwyn: It's broken up into chunks. So it's not like you have to sit down and watch five hours at a time. I have started watching it. I, I watched the first two lessons and then decided I want to come to these interviews, both with you and Hypnostory with a total beginner's mind and ask you, because most of my listeners are going to have no clue. So I will ask the stupid questions. And if I know too much, I won't ask the stupid questions.

[00:13:32] Panda: That's fair. it's broken down in chunks into a bunch of different chapters. Everything is timestamped so you can find things if you want to. If you're like, what the hell was that induction again? I don't remember. There's a transcript, there are captions. We try to make it as accessible as possible. And payment is on a sliding scale.

[00:13:50] Gwyn: And it's absolutely lovely. I highly encourage people to go and do it.

[00:13:55] Panda: Thanks.

[00:13:55] Gwyn: Yeah, no, for real. But you were telling me about, oh, the different types of depth is

[00:14:02] Panda: Oh yeah, so, so everything's a metaphor, depth there's also a metaphor. But it's kind of like a grayscale. Some people might start out at like a pretty, shallow level of trance for the most part. And then the more you use fractionation to bring somebody in and out and alter them more, if you're looking at that scale, it starts going like, you know, downward a little bit. If you could like see a little graph, it's a little like peak and then you go down further and then like a slightly lower peak and then you go down a little further. So the entire time you are deepening the person's trance. Then that's a useful metaphor that a lot of us recognize and use.

[00:14:44] There are steps to hypnosis that a lot of people ascribe to. Although once you get into more nuance, conversation, and language will say that that is kind of bullshit and that you don't need the process really to do the thing. The only things I think you really need are obviously consent and negotiation.

[00:15:07] If the person is brand new to hypnosis, pre talk can be super useful. And pre talk is basically just an extra step in your negotiation. Where you talk about what they might be afraid of, what myths they might have heard about hypnosis. What they're worried about might happen or not happen, and just really share some stuff about hypnosis that you know to be true.

[00:15:33] A lot of times in that phase, what people ask is like, can I get stuck in trance? The answer is no. Can I uh, lose my free will, and can you go make me rob a bank? Probably not, would have to be really, really, really skilled and manipulative and shitty to do it. And so like, those are the kinds of things and questions that happen in a pre talk.

[00:15:55] And that's also where you build the expectation that it's going to work. Because a lot of this is like, rapport building, and confidence, and communicating intent very clearly with what's going to happen. And then you've got what a lot of people call the induction, which is the act of taking the person into trance.

[00:16:18] It's the beginning of the official like hypnosis part of it. I hope you can hear the air quotes in my voice because I just don't want anyone to come for me. There are so many different ways of doing this, so I'm jus giving a generalization. The induction. Some people do really long ones that are like minutes long, 5, 10, even like 15 minutes of like progressive muscle relaxation. And then there are those of us like me who literally need a rapid or instant induction or else we're going to get bored.

[00:16:52] For me, Hypnostory is just going to tell me to drop. And then I'm gonna drop. And, dropping is the shorthand of, like, yeeting yourself into trance, because you know what it feels like in your mind and in your body. It's like, practicing. The more you do something, the faster you can get there, or like, the better you can do the thing because you're building those neural pathways, and that's it. Like, at this point, my neural pathway from awake to in trance is a superhighway where there's no speed limit. You could really, I can do it in an instant, and a lot of people can.

[00:17:32] Gwyn: that is so fascinating.

[00:17:34] Panda: It's so fun, and it's so cool, and every brain is a heckin snowflake, so that's what's interesting about it, is that it works differently for everyone. Some people's brains do certain things really well, like amnesia, or visual hallucination, or auditory hallucination like I'm great at auditory hallucination and I suck at visual hallucination because it's all dependent on like how your brain already works. And what modalities you most relate to.

[00:18:09] And you can build skills. I mean like being in hypnosis or transing is a skill. Just like topping for it is a skill. This is definitely, like, a skill set on both sides of the slash. But probably even more so for the one who's having the experience, who's the one in trance. Because, really, it's all happening in your mind, and the top is the one who's guiding what is happening to you. They're your GPS essentially. So like you're driving, they're the GPS. So like if they told me to turn right into a brick wall, I'd probably tell them to fuck off, come out of trance and not play with them.

[00:18:47] But for the most part, I play with people who I already trust, who I already have rapport with, who I know aren't going to do that to me. And I know that if they try, then I can just come out of trance and take care of myself in whatever way I have to.

[00:19:06] Negotiation, pre-talk, induction, deepener, really is the main part of it is like either using hypnosis like a tool some people like to use it that way, where they like build in a trigger, like, okay, when you come up out of trance, and when I snap, you're gonna be a puppy girl, and you're gonna be a puppy girl.

[00:19:29] Do this thing every time I snap and then they'll like bring you out of trance and you'll play with that and then they might bring you back down and erase that suggestion and put in something different. Or there are those of us who are hypnofetishists where the act of The hypnosis itself is hot.

[00:19:48] I am one of those people. I think it was super conditioned into me just from like doing it so darn much, but I'm very pleased with the result. So I'm so happy with it. If somebody could just send me like further and further into trance and make me like super blank and empty. And mindless feeling and controlled and helpless and like all those hot fun subby CNC type feelings that I love to have and they can accomplish that just with trance and that's it.

[00:20:21] And that can be the whole scene for me and I'm super happy with it. I love that because it's so accessible. You don't have to do anything physical. You don't have to move if you don't want to. There's so many avenues that you can take with it. And like, really, your only limitation is your imagination.

[00:20:39] But so obviously, cleanup is like any other normal scene with the caveat that if you've built, triggers or suggestions for the scene that you have to do your cleanup. Unless you're in like an ongoing relationship where like ongoing triggers are a part of that. For a pickup play, or for like most closed kind of scenes, we'll erase everything, say everything's back to normal, all the suggestions are cancelled, and then you go into your aftercare and then maybe debrief, do your check ins, what have you. So that's the step by step of like, the big things, but really, it's not gonna always look like that when you're watching an in person scene. Especially if you're in a long term relationship.

[00:21:24] So for me, I know that if I say something, like if I say like, Oh, well, that's the weirdest feeling I've ever had. And HypnoStory looks at me a certain way and goes, Is it? And then says the words, I wonder. I know whatever bullshit comes out of their mouth next is gonna be a hypnotic suggestion and it works. Even though I was not in trance. And there was no middle part of building the suggestion. Because I have so much hecking rapport and experience in communication with Hypnostory, that I just see it so clearly.

[00:22:04] And we're both into them creating what reality looks like for me. And that their favorite saying is, their words become my reality. And it's fun and hot and easy for us. And that is a great thing that we can pepper into our everyday life. Cause we live together with our triad partner, Yoshi. And so there's a lot of times where it's just work and adulting and dishes, laundry, what have you. But what I love about hypnosis is that like just an hour ago, I was zonked out of my mind while sorting laundry. Because I was sitting on the bed, Hypnostory was helping me, and said, Okay, cool, every piece of laundry that you fold and put away in the correct pile, you're gonna go into trance for a few seconds, and come back up, and then continue. And so, very quickly, I am fractionated out of my gourd, because that's a lot of laundry. And It made it instead of this chore that I really wasn't looking forward to and didn't have energy to do into this really like fun, silly, hot, connective thing and it's chef's kiss. It's so good for that.

[00:23:23] Gwyn: Yeah, I can absolutely see why that would be appealing

[00:23:26] Panda: Yeah, it's great.

[00:23:28] Gwyn: How long did it take you to get to that place together?

[00:23:34] Panda: Probably a year or 2. Yeah. And that was doing it very intensively. Long distance, it's very good for long distance relationships and long distance play because you can make things happen that you can't do, physically. So, like, they could give me an impact scene, we could do wax, we could do, like, forced orgasms, like, pretty much anything we could do with hypnosis.

[00:24:00] Since we were, 12 hours apart at this point. That was a lot of what we did. So almost every day we did at least a little bit of hypnosis and that really strengthened our play relationship really quickly. And that's something to keep in mind that I try to warn people is that It's an intensifier.

[00:24:23] So like whatever you're doing with hypnosis, like whatever your relationship is, the hypnosis will intensify it and like might make it go faster or deepen rapport more than it would if you weren't using it. For me, my risk profile is pretty high and I came into the situation with the full knowledge that I was likely going to, like, have a lot of feelings really quickly, but that's how I operate, so I was okay with that but it's definitely something to know going in.

[00:24:57] And Hypnostory really, warned me about all of that and, like, helped me build safeties and things so we would ensure that I was able to care for myself always and, like, advocate for myself in the, just in case I needed to and that was really important to both of us. And so that was stupidly helpful to build in the beginning. Because it gave that foundational layer of trust of, I know that this person doesn't want to harm me. Yeah, hurt me. Yes, please hurt me. But, like, you know, like, no harm in the long game. And after that, it was really a lot of physical, like, in person fucking around and finding out, playing with different things.

[00:25:41] And as I communicated more with them, that helped a lot with learning what worked for me and what didn't. What was really helpful that I recommend for, not just HypnoKink, but people trying to communicate with a top about their desires, is that I would go to writings like hypnotic logs of like scenes that had happened and I would copy and paste phrases that I thought were hot and then put afterwards like why I thought it was hot and send that to Hypnostory. And that really helped to like shortcut that rapport and what was going to work for us.

[00:26:20] And I like, seriously, friends, I highly recommend doing it. The more you can give that person access to your brain, the better it's going to work and the faster it's going to go. I know there are some people out there who were like, Oh, well, they have to work for it. And I'm like, okay, but why? It's a test that you're setting them up for that they might not succeed at. If you don't give them information! It's like giving somebody a test without letting them read the textbook. And that's just not fair! And like you want to have a good time. You want them to have a good time. So why wouldn't you give them all the information?

[00:26:59] Gwyn: Right. You mentioned putting safeties in place. Can you tell us some examples of what that was?

[00:27:05] Panda: Yeah, totally. So in the beginning. And we teach this in like our 101 and our beginning classes that we gamified it. I'm a gamer. I love gaming. I'm very loyal to the Nintendo franchise and cannot stop playing Tears of the Kingdom to save my life. So they would say, all right, I'm gonna give you suggestions that are gonna bring you closer to an orgasm. And you have to stop that orgasm from happening by bringing yourself out of trance. Because it's me and I'm a brat, when I pulled myself out of trance, tell them that they suck and to fuck off. Because that's mean.

[00:27:43] Gwyn: That's fucking mean! Yeah! Oh, geez!

[00:27:48] Panda: But the theory, I guess, the hypothesis, was if I can bring myself out of trance for something that I want, like to stop something I want from happening, that I would feel more confident to stop something that I didn't want from happening. And so we did a fair amount of that in the beginning of like, just testing it out. And sometimes it would be very overt, like, okay, this is what we're gonna do, go. We're gonna play this game we're gonna practice this thing. Occasionally would like kind of pop quiz it just to solidify it, and I just have no question now that I would be able to.

[00:28:29] Now I will say like a lot of this coincided with other things in my life. It coincided with ending another relationship and a lot of personal growth work on my end. I've been in therapy for like 10 years so that was definitely a part of it. It kind of coincided with realizing that all this can also include owning your power as a submissive person.

[00:28:54] Because I'm very into authority exchange, like, control is my main kink. Like, control is a part of pretty much everything I do, that I, that I want to feel helpless, I want to feel controlled. I want them to have all the power. And if you don't recognize your own power, how the hell are you going to give it away? Or how are you going to let somebody else have authority over your power? So that was a really big deal for me. And kind of coincided with being so comfortable with my safeties.

[00:29:25] Was that like, yes, I'm a submissive. And I'm clever and brilliant and powerful as fuck. And that means that if somebody is trying to be manipulative or like sneaky in some way, because people can be awfully sneaky with hypnosis if they know what they're doing. That I'm gonna see it and I'm gonna tell them that I see what they're doing and to politely fuck off.

[00:29:53] And usually I will do it kind of with humor, it's not like I'll be rude about it, although in some situations it probably would have been warranted to be rude about it. Like I was in a conversation with somebody at a HypnoCon And there was this guy sitting behind the person I was having the conversation with, and they were playing with a pocket watch

[00:30:16] Gwyn: Like they're in a 1940s movie. Yeah.

[00:30:20] Panda: pocket watches and dangly things, like anything that sways back and forth uh, is very trope y. But also really effective, because a lot of us kink on the trope. And, eye fixation is a very common induction style.

[00:30:36] Gwyn: Gotcha.

[00:30:37] Panda: like, if you took my cell phone, put it in front of me, but put it a little above my head so that my eyes are purposefully going to get tired, and moved it back and forth and had me watch it, it would put me in trance. That's just kind of how eye fixations go, if you allow it to. But in that case, I wasn't going to allow it to, because like, he was clearly trying to get my attention. Was dangling it back and forth to, like, see if he was gonna, like, I don't know if it was to entice me or try to get me to drop or what, but, I paid it absolutely no mind, kept talking to the person who I was talking to, and then, like, I think as I just walked past him was, like, Hey, you should watch where you're pointing that thing. And you just move on, you know?

[00:31:26] Gwyn: Yeah. It seems kind of like a dick move

[00:31:28] Panda: yeah, it's, I mean, it's beyond a dick move. It's like straight up a consent violation at that point.

[00:31:34] Gwyn: Yeah.

[00:31:35] Panda: I think it's funny for some people to think about, because it is so mental, and it's, doesn't have to be physical, that like, consent violations are even more of a risk, almost. Because if you accidentally say a word that is somebody else's trigger, and they don't have good safeties around that trigger, then you could accidentally trigger them and then they say it's your fault.

[00:31:59] Gwyn: Mm.

[00:32:00] Panda: that doesn't happen super often because most of us would say, no, that depends on the subject having agency. Which is super important, and like, that's really the hypno community version of submissive power. They call it hypnotic agency. Which is recognizing your responsibility as the bottom, owning your own power, understanding that you have control over your mind, and that you only have to, or can, give it to the people that you want to.

[00:32:32] And that if somebody else is saying something or suggesting something that you don't want to do, that you should advocate for yourself and bring yourself out of trance, no matter how good it feels, no matter how much you want to please them, no matter what reward you think you're going to get out of it. Because as hypnotees as subjects, as bottoms, we need to be able to advocate for ourselves. When the brainware is extra involved other people might not know what's happening in your brain.

[00:33:06] Gwyn: Right.

[00:33:06] Panda: So if they don't know what's happening, only you can speak up for yourself. 

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[00:35:01] You talked about long distance and being able to engage in impact play and that sort of thing. What does that feel like?

[00:35:10] Panda: Again, every person's mileage is gonna vary.

[00:35:12] Gwyn: Asking you, what did you feel like?

[00:35:15] Panda: So when I feel physical sensations, it's so weird because I don't physically externally feel the thing happening, but I feel all the internal response of it happening.

[00:35:29] Gwyn: that's so cool.

[00:35:30] Panda: Isn't it cool? So

[00:35:31] Gwyn: so cool. Yeah.

[00:35:33] Panda: I know, so like I will even, react the same. If they're doing a thing like with a flogger, then like, my back will like, buckle forward a little bit. And if they say like, oh, we're like, we're Florentine flogging, I will, mentally go away real quick, obvious for me rhythm and music involved in my kink are just gonna like send me. Because I'm a trained musician, I'm a classical musician so like auditory is just such my jam. It's so great. So that applies to like impact for me, and also orgasms.

[00:36:11] Gwyn: Neat!

[00:36:12] Panda: They can totally give me hypnotic orgasms. I'm not gonna feel stimulated externally, but I'm gonna have all the same happy body brain chemicals, like I'm having an orgasm. And like, I'm gonna respond the same. My partners can attest to that. Because like, I have abnormally long orgasms that usually last 20 30 seconds, where I'm like, just writhing and dying a little bit and noises and like, that's all there. That's all there. Even with hypnotic orgasm.

[00:36:45] Gwyn: So you're not getting the external sensation, but in your brain, you are still feeling like you are having an orgasm or feeling like you are being flogged. That is so cool.

[00:36:56] Panda: Because your brain knows how to do it. you go, Oh, I know this, what this feels like. And it's easy for it to go there. And it's really interesting because it can also apply to things that you've never experienced.

[00:37:10] Gwyn: Tell me about that.

[00:37:12] Panda: Oh my God. It's so great. So I'm an edge player. I'm a dark edge player, dark little so like I live in the spoopy and I live in the fucked up and I really like leaning into what makes other people uncomfortable and examining why they're uncomfortable. As like my baseline jam.

[00:37:28] So uh, I wanted to warn because I'm about to reference scalpels. For anyone who doesn't like that, just skip ahead like 30 seconds. So I've never experienced cutting blood play which is something that I really want to, I just haven't yet. I don't really have a partner who's like

[00:37:45] Gwyn: down with that.

[00:37:45] Panda: yeah, who knows how, really? Like, some of them might be interested, they just don't know how. But the fun thing is, with hypnosis, you can take a credit card and be like, Hey, this is a scalpel now. And, do whatever across their skin. And so the fun thing is, I've never experienced a scalpel. It just kind of becomes what you imagine or like what qualities you imagine it would have.

[00:38:11] For pro tips, if you want to do this for negotiating it, I would just start with asking the bottom, like, okay, what do you want to feel here? Why do you want to experience this? What for? And for me, it's like, catharsis, intensity sharp pain the sensation of, feeling blood trickle down.

[00:38:33] And, like, power, control, those are all things I want. And so, sure enough, when somebody says, hey, my finger's a scalpel now, and then goes across my chest, then I feel that, like, immediate intensity of like what I would imagine would be a scalpel going pretty deep into my skin and I'll get like the pain face and the shot that I get this look of like, how dare you? [00:38:59] Like that's my pain face. So it's really funny for them and really intense for me in that way that I want. And I get that immediate endorphin rush with it, even though I've never experienced it.

[00:39:13] Gwyn: Wow.

[00:39:14] Panda: Yeah, it's great. So we've done impossible things. Like, I've been fucked by my succubus girlfriend with her tentacles. With hypnosis. It's so hot, it's so good. And we've done ridiculous things, like made me cum broccoli. Yeah, we're really weird.

[00:39:34] Gwyn: Less hot for me.

[00:39:37] Panda: The funny thing was Hypnostory intended it to be a thing, like, I'm gonna make you think this is sexy. Like, just because he could?

[00:39:45] Gwyn: Sure.

[00:39:45] Panda: This is where with hypnosis, sometimes ambiguous language can get a little funny. And where like, word interpretation can sometimes come into play, depending on how literal or bratty they are. So, Hypnostory said, you're going to come broccoli and it's going to be really hot. My brain decided that meant I was gonna come really hot broccoli, like steaming broccoli. So yeah, that's I mean it was really funny. I was just, like, I just looked down, and this was on video, so I just, like, literally looked down and I was like, Daddy, why is it steaming? And he was like, what? And then was like, oh my god, did you take that literally? And I was like, yeah! What did you mean? And I just thought it was sexy! And then, he realized, like, what was happening, he was like, oh, well, clearly, now I need to squirt cheese sauce, and because I can squirt on command, that was a thing I could do, and it felt,

[00:40:54] Gwyn: of course, steam broccoli always goes with cheese sauce.

[00:40:57] Panda: Yeah, totally. And so that's what happened. Hypnotically, squirting while thinking you're hypnotically squirting like a thick cheese sauce is very strange. Like borderline painful. I was trained to come on command before I did hypnosis. Cause like hypnosis and classical conditioning. They're kind of besties.

[00:41:19] Gwyn: Yeah, it sounds a lot like they're very, well that they're just sort of two branches of the same tree. And that's why I feel like ethics is really important. Also, I know some people who have been kind of fucked over by unethical players. They were very young. One friend was very young and very susceptible and here is my hot take in general. If you are very young, do not go to the person who is the leader of any group

[00:41:47] Panda: Yes.

[00:41:49] Gwyn: Just because they are the leader does not mean that they are an ethical person. Yeah, and in general, if they're a man over 40, and they are coming after 18 year olds. Giant red flag. I don't care who the fuck you are

[00:42:03] Panda: and like, that's why I make sure to say, or Hypnostory does, if I forget, in pretty much all of our classes, I mentioned at some point, especially in person cons. Just because we're in front of you doesn't mean we know what the fuck we're doing, any more than anyone else. It doesn't mean we're experts. It doesn't mean that, like, you should come to us and play with us. In fact, if you come to us after this class because you've seen us teach, we will not play with you. Because of the implied power dynamic that we are not comfortable with. And we're just... good at public speaking and being entertaining.

[00:42:43] And we're both trained performers. So this is an avenue that really works for us, but it doesn't mean we're any more special or or smarter or like more informed than anyone else. It's just such a silly assumption that just because somebody is teaching a thing that they are the expert on that thing.

[00:43:08] Gwyn: Right. You also said that somebody can always pull themselves out of trance if they need to. Is that just a thing? Like, you just can? You always can? Or is it possible that somebody could be trained to not be allowed to do that?

[00:43:25] Panda: That is possible. It is entirely possible to be conditioned to not be able to, or to so thoroughly be convinced That you're that helpless.

[00:43:41] Gwyn: Yeah,

[00:43:42] Panda: That you wouldn't be able to come out of trance. But yeah, it is very possible for somebody who was manipulative or shitty, who wants to have a very actually helpless submissive, because they feel like that's hotter for whatever reason. And that's some dangerous shit.

[00:44:02] Gwyn: right,

[00:44:03] Panda: that's where it gets unethical for me.

[00:44:05] Gwyn: right. And that, I guess that's where a lot of concern comes in.

[00:44:10] Panda: That's why, if you talk to kinksters, general BDSM kinksters, there are quite a few kinksters out there who will be like, Oh no, I won't touch hypnosis. Like I won't play with things that mess with your brain. To which my response is always okay, so you don't do power exchange? So we don't play with rope. We don't do impact because guess what? That's all altering headspace in a very, very similar way. If you are playing with any kind of intensity, you are altering someone's headspace. Whether that's top space, sub space, rope space, what have you. And that's a lot of why we do what we do, right? We're looking for some kind of escapism, catharsis, play, joy, arousal, energy, something, connectivity. And that's why I don't understand why a lot of people are so sus about hypnosis.

[00:45:16] For a long time, I wasn't into it and didn't even necessarily believe in it, like, I didn't believe that it was real, but I was never one of those guys who was like, oh, it's dangerous, like, it's mind control. No, we wish it was mind control. Like, I would love if it was mind control, that would be really hot, but it's just not. A lot of it's an illusion. A lot of it is how far you're willing to take yourself. And it's really just having the self awareness to know that and to own that. Which is something a lot of people are not willing to do, I don't think. And that's fine. I'm a person who's painfully self aware, so there are a lot of times that I wish I was not so. But it's also just how I am in the world, and I think that has also served me in a myriad of ways.

[00:46:11] Gwyn: Yeah. And one of the things that I find really interesting is how you talk about practice. That the more you do it, the better you get. And learning the neural pathways and that sort of thing. That was not a good segue at all. Cause we were talking about ethics, but that's just where my brain went to.

[00:46:27] Panda: No, it's fine. It's fine. Well, and like, with practice, it's just like, you can do that in any other kink too. Like, how many of us lab with rope? It's just like any other skill, really. You just gotta build her up. It's just way more dependent on intent and communication and rapport than other kinks because the technique is not that hard it's really not that hard once you understand the basic concepts of what you're doing you can kind of make anything out of anything like you can make an induction out of anything a deepener out of anything. It could be ' and as you hear the sound of the siren fade into the distance, you can just focus more and more on the sound of my voice'. To like, bring somebody back from being distracted by something, that's just patter that you develop over time. That shit you just learn by doing it.

[00:47:19] I'm not a top either. But I will probably be more comfortable switching with hypnosis than anything else, because I recognize that I'm good at it. There's some of that, like, ooh, we're good at this chemical. And there's also the, like, yay, I'm serving somebody and giving them a good time. Because I'm also a service human. And I make audio files monthly for our Patreon anyway, so it, like, is helpful to be good at it.

[00:47:45] Gwyn: Sure.

[00:47:46] Panda: But like, I didn't know shit. I was terrified of topping for hypnosis for two years. And it took a lot of encouragement from Hypnostory, and just doing the damn thing for me to get good at it.

[00:48:03] I think the first time I ended up topping somebody else for hypnosis was in a game. We were like doing in a virtual thing. It was in the middle of the panini and we were playing this thing called iron hypnotist. Uh, Which is like, we make it more informal than it actually sounds, but like, really, it's just that, like, you, a top and a bottom get paired together in front of other people, and the bottom gives the top a prompt, they do, like, a really quick negotiation, and then you just do the darn thing.

[00:48:37] And for me, I would give them an idea of what I'm thinking of doing. So I'd be like, Hey, like, how do you feel about the idea of swimming in your own cum or like floating in a pool where there's absolutely no way you can sink? Or, like, being caught in a spider's web, but the spider doesn't look quite right.

[00:48:53] Like, stuff like that, just to, like, make sure they're down with whatever I'm about to put down. But yeah, then you just go. And so that's what I did. There weren't enough tops in the game. And me and Hypnostory at one point were hosting it, because the original host needed, like, peace, but everybody still wanted to keep playing. So we took a turn hosting, and we were basically the only tops in the room in a room full of bottoms.

[00:49:18] Gwyn: Oh shit.

[00:49:19] Panda: So we didn't have enough tops, so I had to top. I ended up topping for like three or four scenes, little scenes, 10, 15 minutes long, maybe. And they reacted so well. Were just like, holy crap that was great la la la. That I was like, Oh, maybe I can do this. And Hypnostory it was like, yeah, I've only been telling you that forever.

[00:49:43] Gwyn: right?

[00:49:43] Panda: I needed, I needed the practice to build that confidence because truly in like almost any topping, getting your confidence is like half the battle. It doesn't matter what kink you're doing.

[00:49:55] Gwyn: Yeah.

[00:49:56] Panda: I feel like I was good at it because I had done so much of it. I had heard so many people do it, had witnessed so much of it. So there were just some phrases that were automatically in my head that were easy to say. So sure, like at first I probably sounded a lot like Hypnostory's style, because that was the main style that I knew. But since then I have gotten more partners, I do pick up play with other people in the scene. I've listened to files just to see what they do, and that's been super helpful for me for like developing my own language, my own pattern.

[00:50:35] My own phrases. And really no two people end up kind of sounding exactly the same. Even if you use the same words, because the pacing matters so much. Using that negative space, speeding up or slowing down, like the inflection of it all, like 10 people could say the same sentence and it would come out entirely different. And that's the beauty of it almost.

[00:51:04] Gwyn: Yeah. That seems really neat.

[00:51:06] Panda: It's cool. That's why I like hypnosis a lot is because it's so nerdy. It's so geeky. It's so language forward. And you don't need to be any kind of physically anything to be able to do it.

[00:51:22] Gwyn: Right. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. We sort of briefly talked about how different people's brains react in different ways. I have a friend who cannot visualize, they just cannot, their brain doesn't work that way.

[00:51:36] Panda: Mm

[00:51:37] Gwyn: But it sounds like if they were interested that there would still be other avenues for them to approach this with, it's

[00:51:44] Panda: hmm. Totally.

[00:51:45] Gwyn: it's like, if you go to YouTube, you know, and you listen to the hypnosis or the meditations, a lot of them are visualize this or visualize that. And so they've learned how to focus on different things for meditation, but is that the same sort of skill set that they would be drawing on

[00:52:04] Panda: Yes.

[00:52:05] Gwyn: for hypnosis? Okay.

[00:52:06] Panda: Yes and there are two different forms of visualization. So there's the external visualization, which is the one that I can't do. And then there is what's called the mind's eye, which is where if you say, think of an apple and then you can see in your head, what color it would be, what kind of apple it would be, what shape it is. That's visualization from the mind, like internally.

[00:52:33] Gwyn: Yeah.

[00:52:34] Panda: Which is, yes, where a lot of people go because there's kind of a common assumption that people can experience things that way, which is not true. So that's why there are other modalities, kinesthetic, auditory. Kinesthetic is actually one of my favorites because if you just replace visualize with feel or imagine, then that kind of takes the trouble out of the equation, at least in my experience.

[00:53:04] Because, okay, maybe I can't visualize a car. I'm not a car person, I would need a lot more details than that to even know where to start.

[00:53:15] Gwyn: Is it a bug? Is it a Rolls Royce?

[00:53:17] Panda: Right, exactly. What words would even make sense to me, because a lot of them wouldn't, but I can, like, if I close my eyes and think about a car, if it's on, like, think about what it would smell like, the glint of the light off of the car. What level of clean or dirty it might be, and, like, what that would make me feel, because, I'm a person who likes clean things, so, like, it would kind of squeak me a little bit if it felt dirty. So, like, those are all things that come to mind without at all using visualization.

[00:53:53] Gwyn: Neat.

[00:53:54] Panda: Yeah. That's why I'm a huge proponent of breaking things down into common qualities that like anyone can understand as common language. Because when you say car, two different people are going to have two different ideas of what that car looks like. But if you. Break that down or like, almost push it back into something more general or like a bigger picture, then you could be like, okay, like, if you're in the car, the top is down, then you might have a more common understanding of what that's going to feel like.

[00:54:25] Even then, you might have two different understandings of what it would feel like if you each have a different goal in mind, but that's where you talk about, what do you want? What do you want to experience? Why are we doing this together? And that's why I also hammer home communication all the time, because the more you know about what you want and what works for you. I think the better you can make your own experience. And the more you can influence the experience for the other person as well, because they come into it with most information.

[00:55:00] And if you're new, and you don't know, whatever, that's okay. But I just wish people would stop pretending that they know when they don't, or like, they relate when they don't. Like, you know, when we're kids and someone mentions some obscure reference, but you want to look cool, so you pretend like you understand. And I think that some people still do that, like, in kink. And especially when you're going into negotiation territory, that's really dangerous. Even with hypnosis it is, because you might run into something that you didn't know was a landmine in your brain if you say you've done the thing and that it's okay, but then go ahead and do the thing and, surprise, it's not okay!

[00:55:45] Gwyn: Tell us where to find you, Panda.

[00:55:47] Panda: full of shameless plugs. Here we go. So there is pandastory.love, which is our website. pandastory.love/101 is also the shortcut of where to find our video 101. Which is that beginning to hypnosis, intro to hypnosis that I mentioned earlier.

[00:56:05] There is our Patreon, we are patreon.com/pandastory. We also run a free kink education discord server that we've run for a few years called Consolation. It's capital C O N and then solation like the rest of the word. Because we made it as a consolation prize for our A convention being cancelled and then the community just stayed and we went okay so we host at least one or two classes every month, most of them for free lots of fantastic presenters that we've known through the years on a variety of topics, mostly not even hypnosis related honestly. I know we have a boot blacking and boot care class coming up and a boot play one Hannah the Scribe does a lot of beautiful classes for us. And it's all free. We try to do closed captioning as well because accessibility is super important to us and we just love nerding out about kink in there.

[00:57:06] And that's also where our patrons discord is as well. There's like a little channel within that channel where we will probably be posting future videos and little fun content and things. And I'm Panda Pet. on FetLife. I try to keep the events that we're doing current on there. We do teach at a couple cons per year.

[00:57:30] I'm on staff for a few as well, and we teach virtual one off classes, some of which are paid, some of which are free so it really just depends on what you're looking for. But I am findable as PandaPet or Panda pretty much anywhere. Tumblr, FetLife, Discord. And I love answering questions. Like I seriously never get tired of talking about kink ever. And if I can just do this for the rest of my life, that would be my dream. Really don't be afraid to reach out.

[00:57:59] Gwyn: Aw, that's so beautiful and sweet.

[00:58:02] Panda: Thanks.

[00:58:02] Gwyn: I'm all mushy now. I know. I mean, I'm probably wishy for lots of other reasons, but that actually really touched me. What excites you, Panda?

[00:58:14] Panda: You're going to get a list. It's going to be a real random: cheese, mixology, anything from the Zelda franchise, tea, musical theater, singing specifically, musical theater, jazz, cabaret, genre, stuff are my favorite. Basically, anything that's grounded in authenticity and ethics, growth, liberation, anything along that front is really What excites me the most and what I'm the most here for.

[00:58:48] Gwyn: That was beautiful. Thank you.

[00:58:50] Panda: Oh, thanks.

[00:58:56] Gwyn: If you would like to learn more about HypnoKink or Panda or HypnoStory, please visit pandastory. love or join their Discord server, Consolation and you can find links to these and all the other things we mentioned in the show notes. You can find the show notes in the app that you are listening to me right now, or by going to the website, whatexcitesus. com. When you are done reading all the show notes, please take a moment or two to rate and review this podcast in all the places. [00:59:26] It helps get the word out. And that is what we're trying to do. You can also visit my sponsors or check up on any episode you might've missed at the website, What Excites Us.

[00:59:38] What Excites Us is produced, edited, hosted by me, Gwyn Isaacs. Our podcast host is Tickle. Life. All music is used under the Creative Commons Attribution License. The opening song is The Vendetta by Stefan Kartenberg, and this is Quando by Julius H.

[00:59:57] The life snippet this time is, I'm too tired to come up with a life snippet. So thanks for listening. You rock.